SEO For Brands: If You’re Not Something, You’re Nothing (ft. Mordy Oberstein)

In this episode of Simple and Smart SEO, Crystal Waddell sits down with the one and only Mordy Oberstein—Head of Brand at Wix, founder of Unify Brand Marketing, and self-proclaimed SEO contrarian (with a soft spot for brutal honesty). 

If you think SEO is just about keywords and backlinks, Mordy is here to obliterate that notion faster than an algorithm update can tank your rankings.

They dive into how businesses should stop trying to be everything (because newsflash: that means you’re nothing), and why SEOs should stop acting like lone wolves and start sitting with the comms team.

💡 Key Takeaways:

• Branding is a Mindset: If your brand is just ‘meh,’ then congrats—you’ve successfully made yourself forgettable.
• Empathy & Nuance in Marketing: Understanding your audience is not just a trendy phrase—it’s literally the difference between a brand that connects and one that screams into the void.
• SEO & Branding Are Now Besties: Gone are the days of SEO being just about technical hacks. If you don’t integrate branding, you’re just playing whack-a-mole with rankings.
• Positioning > Messaging: If you skip positioning and jump straight to messaging, you’re basically a minivan company trying to sell “coolness” (spoiler: it’s not working).
• Vulnerability in Branding: Yes, making a bold brand choice means some people won’t like you. No, you cannot please everyone. Yes, that is actually a good thing.
• Welcome to the Digital Winter: There’s too much noise, too much content, and too many companies trying to be everything. The winners? Brands that actually resonate.

🔥 Memorable Quotes:

“If you aren’t something, then you’re nothing. And if you’re something, then you’re for somebody.” – Mordy Oberstein

“No risk it, no biscuit.” – Mordy (channeling his inner Todd Bowles while explaining brand strategy)

🛠 Resources & Mentions:

• Mordy’s brand consultancy: Unify Brand Marketing 
• Follow Mordy for more hot takes: LinkedIn
• Connect with Crystal (aka the one who survived this interview): Website | Instagram | LinkedIn

🎧 Listen & Subscribe:
Avoid SEO disasters and brand identity crises—subscribe to the Simple and Smart SEO Show on your favorite podcast platform!

👉 Enjoyed this episode? Leave a review and tell us which of Mordy’s takes made you laugh, c

Chapters

• 0:00 that's how it is with the brand, also.
• 0:01 Like you are something.
• 0:52 Introduction and Guest Welcome
• 1:24 Birthday Celebration and Light Banter
• 1:41 Holistic Approach to SEO
• 2:28 Branding as a Mindset
• 4:34 Empathy and Nuance in Marketing
• 5:31 Connecting with Your Audience
• 7:03 Personal Stories and Marketing Insights
• 8:01 The Importance of Authenticity
• 8:49 Challenges of Modern Marketing
• 14:50 Brand Identity and Expansion
• 17:50 Jaguar and Baseball Analogies
• 18:31 Distrust in National Announcers
• 20:38 SEO and Content Creation Insights
• 21:12 Nuances in Professional Expertise
• 21:52 The Importance of Situational Writing
• 22:59 Branding and Digital Winter
• 24:17 TV Ads and Resonance
• 26:22 Positioning vs. Messaging
• 30:18 The Athletic's Effective Positioning
• 32:29 Unify Brand Marketing and SEO in 2025

Transcript

[00:00:00] Mordy Oberstein: that's how it is with the brand, also. 

[00:00:01] Like you are something. If you aren't something, then you're nothing. So then there's nothing to talk about. 

[00:00:06] Then if you're something, then you're for somebody. If you're for somebody, it also means you're not for somebody. If you can't accept that reality, you just can't accept the reality.

[00:00:15] So you're living in a sandcastle in the sky. Which went by the way, where most brands are living.

[00:00:19] Welcome to the simple and smart SEO show podcast, where we talk all things, brand building, SEO, helping you connect with your audience, elevate your visibility and grow your business. 

[00:00:29] I'm your host, Crystal Waddell, here to bridge the gap between SEO strategy and real world business success. By bringing you insights, stories, and conversations from the SEO community and beyond. 

[00:00:39] Whether you're an entrepreneur, marketer, or SEO enthusiast, this is your place to learn, share, and build a brand that stands out. 

[00:00:47] So grab a coffee or your favorite tea, and let's dive into Smarter SEO for your business. 

[00:00:52] 

Introduction and Guest Welcome

[00:00:52] Crystal Waddell: Hey guys, welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO Show Podcast. Wow. I am here living the dream because I have the infamous and famous Mordy Oberstein on the podcast today. 

[00:01:06] He is the head of his own brand consultancy, Unify. And he's also the head of brand at Wix.

[00:01:14] And so he is here today to talk all things SEO, brand, whatever. 

[00:01:19] Mordy, welcome to the show. 

[00:01:21] Thank you so much for being on the Simple and Smart SEO Show podcast. 

Birthday Celebration and Light Banter

[00:01:24] Mordy Oberstein: Can I say it's your birthday today? 

[00:01:26] Crystal Waddell: Oh, yeah, you can 

[00:01:27] Mordy Oberstein: Everyone sing happy birthday to Crystal, except for me. Cause I have a terrible voice.

[00:01:30] So don't, 

[00:01:30] Crystal Waddell: yeah, I know. It's the thought that counts. I really appreciate that. 

[00:01:34] Mordy Oberstein: singing in my head. If that helps you. 

[00:01:36] Crystal Waddell: I think I can hear it. Yeah. Yeah. I hear it. It's awesome. Good stuff. Good stuff. 

Holistic Approach to SEO

[00:01:41] Crystal Waddell: You are one of my favorite SEOs and just SEO people. Because you take such a holistic look at SEO.

[00:01:49] And when people talk about like helpful content and user first, whatever. I think of you. 

[00:01:55] Because you are thinking beyond just like these numbers and statistics. You're like, how does this actually work? 

[00:02:01] So I want to say thank you for that. 

[00:02:02] Mordy Oberstein: I'm helpful. 

[00:02:03] Crystal Waddell: Oh yeah. 

[00:02:04] Mordy Oberstein: Barry Schwartz. If you're listening, I am helpful.

[00:02:07] Crystal Waddell: You want to know something funny? I met Barry at Brighton SEO. 

[00:02:11] Mordy Oberstein: Barry's nice, right? 

[00:02:13] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. 

[00:02:13] Mordy Oberstein: Nothing like he comes up on digital. 

[00:02:15] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I think he was a little busy, and he was probably being swarmed by people. And I'm like, hey, you're Barry Swartz, aren't you? And he's yeah. I was like, I'll catch you next time, Barry.

[00:02:23] It's cool. It's cool. I know you got things to do. But yeah, he was nice. He was kind. He stopped for a second to chat with me. 

[00:02:28] Okay. 

Branding as a Mindset

[00:02:28] Crystal Waddell: I just want to jump right into it. This whole idea of SEO converging with other practices and like no longer being siloed. 

[00:02:37] I'm like, okay, I get it.

[00:02:39] Like I, I feel like it's something that people have either been hiding from or just not wanting to accept. 

[00:02:44] But you talk about brand as a mindset. 

[00:02:46] Like, why do you say that? 

[00:02:48] Mordy Oberstein: You want to get real for a minute? 

[00:02:49] Crystal Waddell: Oh my gosh, please. 

[00:02:51] Mordy Oberstein: Okay. Like therapy real for a second.

[00:02:53] Crystal Waddell: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:02:54] Mordy Oberstein: Okay. Like, all I view it as a mindset. I think the reason why I like branding, the reason why I have a knack for branding. 

[00:02:59] Is I grew up in a horrible divorce. Okay, so I always have to read each one of these warring parents. 

[00:03:06] And be able to maneuver each one of them. And really understand, like, where they're coming from, be able to speak to each one in a different way.

[00:03:13] Kind of like a target audience. 

[00:03:15] It's a mindset because you get a knack for like understanding like what's motivating people. What's driving people, what's meaningful to people. What's not meaningful to people, what language are they speaking, what language are they not speaking? And how do you relate to them, speak to them and resonate with them?

[00:03:30] And so it's a mindset because for me. Like the reason why I say it's a mindset, because for me, it's very much a mindset. It's very much like a sense. 

[00:03:38] Like a spider sense kind of thing. 

[00:03:40] People will look at like, okay, like almost like an SEO checklist. Okay. In brand marketing, we need to have A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

[00:03:46] It is very much at least on the strategy side, very much not like that. Yes. There are things you have to do. You have to build brand identity and positioning and messaging. And yada in the USPs. And blah, blah, blah. 

[00:03:56] But like the actual finer details of that. It's very intuitive. And it's a way of thinking.

[00:04:01] And if you don't have that way of thinking, then it's not for you. And that's fine. Like data analytics. 

[00:04:06] Might not be my jam. Because that's also a way of thinking. So it's not like a novel idea. Oh, brand is a mindset. SEO is also a mindset. I think that mindset has changed, but let's go back like five years.

[00:04:17] Like SEO was about like hunting keywords and blah, blah, blah. That's a mindset. That you could be good at SEO technically. 

[00:04:23] But if you didn't have that SEO mindset. 

[00:04:25] You're just be missing out. Oh, I got like a stock broker. Like they have a very aggressive mindset. 

[00:04:29] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. And I think to go back to your therapy session. 

[00:04:33] You're describing like. 

Empathy and Nuance in Marketing

[00:04:34] Crystal Waddell: The ability to empathize with people as well. And I think those were two of the words that you use. It really got my attention when I very first, came across your work. And it was empathy and nuance. 

[00:04:47] And I thought, okay. I can listen to this guy because he gets it.

[00:04:50] Mordy Oberstein: We say it all the time, but I think these kinds of things, there's a certain like realness to them. Like you're tapped into it. 

[00:04:56] You're not tapped into it. Like you're targeting your audience, or let's say understanding your audience. 

[00:05:01] Everyone talks about understanding your audience. But like that can either hit you in a real way, or that can just not hit you.

[00:05:07] That could just be like a cognitive thing. To hit you, for me at least. I think it could be very different for different people.

[00:05:12] For me, when I'm talking about like an audience and I'm thinking about an audience, I am really trying, I feel like their life situation. And like their life context. What's going on around them that makes them feel and think and function a certain way?

[00:05:28] In the context of whatever it is that you're offering. 

Connecting with Your Audience

[00:05:31] Mordy Oberstein: I'm like trying to think of like an example, but my default example is like minivans. 

[00:05:35] Which is like such a boring. Can I tell you one time I was on a call, I don't want to say this or not, whatever I was on the call with the CMO of SEMrush and like a potential client. 

[00:05:42] And the example I was using to run through some like SEO stuff was the insurance space. 

[00:05:47] Like all state, Liberty mutual, like Geico.

[00:05:50] Because from an SEO point of view, they are incredibly interesting. Because they're running so many different kinds of media campaigns. 

[00:05:55] But they're also doing SEO. And they have so much branded search, also. 

[00:05:58] It's could you have picked a more boring niche? I'm like, no, it's not boring. It's like super SEO geek.

[00:06:03] This is so interesting. But minivans, super boring example. 

[00:06:06] And I think I saw a video, like we see like minivan sales have gone like tremendously down. 

[00:06:10] People are going to SUVs now. But let's just say minivans were like a thing. 

[00:06:14] Back in the nineties. 

[00:06:15] If I was marketing a minivan, people think, okay, like you're schlepping your kids around and you're a soccer mom or you're a dad.

[00:06:21] That is not the mindset. That's not the actual life context. The actual life context of that person, most likely. 

[00:06:28] This is just my personal opinion on this. Is somebody who feels like they are completely unappreciated for what they do. I am driving my kids around from one stupid thing to the next stupid thing.

[00:06:37] They don't care. No one cares. No one appreciates. I really rather not be doing this. I hate this car. Because it's making me do things that I don't like. 

[00:06:44] That's a life context. 

[00:06:46] Crystal Waddell: Wow. So how do you sell that? 

[00:06:48] Mordy Oberstein: Oh, like how you sell it is no one else appreciates you, right? 

[00:06:53] But we do. That's why we built this feature for you. 

[00:06:55] Your kids might hate your guts. And not appreciate you anyway. But we appreciate you That's why I put this cup holder over here for 

[00:07:01] Crystal Waddell: You know what?

[00:07:02] I love that. 

Personal Stories and Marketing Insights

[00:07:03] Crystal Waddell: And not to get on the therapy couch myself, but I make gifts for athletes for senior night. And 

[00:07:08] Mordy Oberstein: so cool by the way. 

[00:07:10] Crystal Waddell: Oh, thank you. Yeah. I love them. It's fun. Yeah. 

[00:07:13] My mom left when I was a child, like a baby really. 

[00:07:16] And there was some extenuating circumstances beyond that.

[00:07:19] When that biological parent leaves, there's always a piece of you.

[00:07:21] That's Oh, why did they leave me ? 

[00:07:24] And so I always noticed like mothers and fathers. But mothers who did things for their kids. And so my number one customer. Is the moms of athletes. And so I love telling them you're doing a great job. 

[00:07:37] And I mean it. 

[00:07:38] Because I think they are celebrating their kids. And they are not celebrated.

[00:07:42] So I want to celebrate them. 

[00:07:44] Mordy Oberstein: Right? And I think for a marketer, no, I don't. 

[00:07:47] I'm trying to think if I've seen anybody talk about this on LinkedIn or X or whatever blog. Cause no one like talks about like real stuff on those platforms. 

[00:07:55] Celebrate you. I got a new role. Congratulations. I don't care.

[00:07:59] The best marketers I feel like. 

The Importance of Authenticity

[00:08:01] Mordy Oberstein: Are the marketers that are in tune with themselves, right? 

[00:08:03] Cause what you just said was very in tune with yourself. Like you are very aware of that's my life context. That's how I, it hits me. It's there's something real there. And I can take that and I can put that out there.

[00:08:14] I can connect in a way. The best marketers are the ones that are like really connected to themselves. 

[00:08:19] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. 

[00:08:19] Mordy Oberstein: And that's that's a life skill. That's like a beyond marketing skill. 

[00:08:23] But it's very, translatable to marketing. Yeah, no one talks about it. 

[00:08:28] Crystal Waddell: And I think people are trying to talk about it.

[00:08:30] You know how people talk about being authentic. It's like that word gets on my nerves so bad. 

[00:08:35] I think what they're trying to do is trying to find that piece of them that truly connects with other people. That's what authenticity is. 

[00:08:44] It's not something you fake.

[00:08:45] It's just something you are and then being able to accept that. 

[00:08:48] Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Yeah. 

Challenges of Modern Marketing

[00:08:49] Mordy Oberstein: And I think part of the problem like this in the digital marketing or social media age or the digital age, the AI age, whatever age we're in. 

[00:08:56] I don't like it. 

[00:08:57] But whatever age that we're in, it's very hard to get past like very surface level emotions.

[00:09:04] I got no job. Hooray. I ate this for dinner. Hooray. 

[00:09:07] I'm an old person. I was out my other night with my wife and we ordered food. 

[00:09:11] And then there's someone in the table next to us. 

[00:09:12] Young kids. I say young kids, they could be like in their twenties.

[00:09:15] I'm some old person. 

[00:09:16] And they're taking pictures of their, like the food. 

[00:09:18] They're like, post. I'm like, seriously. Like just eat the food and poop it out like everybody else.

[00:09:23] And we're all caught up in like this, like superficial. And that's really bad. That's really bad for marketers. And I know like maybe you need to target superficialness in your marketing. 

[00:09:32] But the way you need to be able to connect and understand that mindset also, which is not superficial, right? So like your connection to that mindset should not be superficial.

[00:09:41] And the problem is like the connection with the self. That we generally have now because we live in such a superficial age. Is generally superficial. So the things that we put out there are generally superficial. 

[00:09:52] Or the way that we relate to, let's say, our brand. Or the marketing that we're doing is generally superficial. But connection doesn't happen there.

[00:09:59] Connection happens with the real stuff inside of you. 

[00:10:02] The existential questions about my state of being, which are borderline. I would personally say aren't even emotional. They're existential at that point. 

[00:10:10] Those are the things that actually resonate. Those are the things that should be part of your brand.

[00:10:15] Those are the things that would be part of your marketing strategy. That should be how you relate to the world. And bring them into your marketing. But we don't live in an age where people think that way. So I don't know. 

[00:10:23] Crystal Waddell: And maybe I think we both have that background in education. So our thought process towards other people is just different. 

[00:10:30] Because you want to see people become the best versions of who they were created to . 

[00:10:34] , be. And I know even for the senior night stuff that I sell, the superficial part is I want everybody to see like how great my kid is doing.

[00:10:42] I want everybody to see how great a parent I am. 

[00:10:45] Just stuff like that. You know what I mean? It's I want everybody to recognize how thoughtful I am to you. So there's that superficial part. 

[00:10:51] But then there's also that deeper meaning part of the, I truly love this person.

[00:10:56] And I want to express that love to them. I think connecting that and then also, connecting with the actual need. 

[00:11:03] Those are two, two separate things, but like such a gift, if you are working in, optimization. 

[00:11:09] Mordy Oberstein: It's such a gift that you have it. And if you have it don't run away from it.

[00:11:12] Lean into it. Like when I was also a teacher. I taught in Baltimore city for two and a half years. 

[00:11:16] What I was like trying to do, I think looking back what I was actually doing and what worked and what didn't work, what worked was sharing me. With the kids and like using myself, which sounds terrible in a weird way. 

[00:11:29] But I'm not a horrible person as a role model for the children.

[00:11:34] And showing them like here's how, cause these are very like, kids from a very hard background. 

[00:11:38] And showing them like how I would deal with challenges, how I would deal with life, like through the things I was saying. 

[00:11:44] And through the things I was teaching. I honestly, I kind of fought the system.

[00:11:48] Like they used to test, every stupid little thing. I did not care. We are going to learn about yes, I'm going to teach you how to like, get the main idea of a story and write it down. 

[00:11:55] But I'm going to teach you like life. 

[00:11:57] That's what I really want to teach you. And that's what resonated, like the deeper part of sharing yourself with other people in that connection.

[00:12:05] Is super powerful. But it has to be deep. But that's really what brand is, right? Brand is there's me as the brand of my identity as a brand. 

[00:12:12] There's you and your life context and the intersection of that, where you both meet and that connection, that's brand. And that. Connection has to be powerful and it has to be deep.

[00:12:22] Otherwise it doesn't, it can't take place. 

[00:12:24] Crystal Waddell: I think the other part of it though, is that it also makes you vulnerable. Yeah. And so how do you recommend to brands to deal with that vulnerability? Because. You're not for everybody, but it still hurts. 

[00:12:36] Mordy Oberstein: Oh, yeah, it's very vulnerable, right?

[00:12:38] I will quote Bruce Arians, who was the quarterback coach for the Pittsburgh Steelers, starting the Ben Roethlisberger era. 

[00:12:43] And then was the coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when Tom Brady won the super bowl. 

[00:12:47] Who said. No, no risk it, no biscuit.

[00:12:48] Crystal Waddell: Oh. That's funny because he doesn't seem to have a lot of one liners. 

[00:12:54] He seems like a very serious man. 

[00:12:56] Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, he's got that one, it's like a great line, right? I say to my kids all the time, like no risk it, no biscuit. 

[00:13:02] Crystal Waddell: So how do you apply that? 

[00:13:03] Mordy Oberstein: Yeah, and I think that's where and particularly like SAAS: 

[00:13:06] Oh, we're an all in one solution. 

[00:13:07] What are you doing? 

[00:13:08] By you being all in one, all for everybody, you are all for nobody.

[00:13:12] It's to quote John Mellencamp you either stand for something or you fall for everything. I'm not sure if he was John Cougar back then, or John Cougar Mellencamp, or just John Mellencamp when he said that, because that guy confuses the crap out of me with all of his names. 

[00:13:24] But it's a good song.

[00:13:25] Anyway. You have to stand for something. You are something. 

[00:13:28] Let's like, let's take a step back. Everyone thinks of it like marketing. I think marketing is like, it's alternate reality. 

[00:13:33] It's not an alternate reality. It's reality. Okay. You are something. And if you are something you are for somebody.

[00:13:41] Okay. I am for my wife. For whatever reason, she tolerates my existence. 

[00:13:46] For 99. 9 percent of other people on the planet, I probably annoy the crap out of them. 

[00:13:50] But there's nothing I can do about that. Cause that's who I am, right? I am that person. And then that's my audience: this one person who is crazy enough to marry me. 

[00:13:59] But that's how it is with the brand.

[00:14:01] Also, like you are something, if you aren't something, but then you're nothing. So then there's nothing to talk about Then If you're something, then you're for somebody. If you're for somebody, it also means you're not for somebody. If you can't accept that reality, you just can't accept the reality.

[00:14:15] So you're living in a sandcastle in the sky. Which went by the way, where most brands are living. 

[00:14:19] Crystal Waddell: There's one brand in particular that I love for a specific purpose that I use them for. 

[00:14:24] And then they changed into an all in one solution. And it's but I don't want those other, I already have a solution for those other things.

[00:14:31] You're the best at this particular thing. And I told them, I'm like, okay, now I've got a few more clients. I don't need all of these other things that you're offering. I just need this one solution for each one of these clients. And now I'm paying for things that I don't need. And you're going to ask me to pay more for something.

[00:14:48] Mordy Oberstein: Very like brands make this mistake. 

Brand Identity and Expansion

[00:14:50] Mordy Oberstein: They like expansion is not an inherent good. Like growing is, right. Growing like your audience, growing your revenue. Growth is. 

[00:14:58] Expanding is tricky. I wrote about this on LinkedIn a while ago about expanding your content offering. I can't remember who I was thinking about.

[00:15:05] Usually I have like real examples in the back of my mind when I write this stuff. I don't say what it actually is. Cause that would be mean. 

[00:15:11] If you're expanding your content offering. You need to be very careful, right? Because let's say you you write about, I don't know, you write about baseball, right?

[00:15:19] You write about the Yankees. Your thing is the New York Yankees. You write about the New York Yankees. And now you're writing about all baseball. Now, if you're a baseball, nut like I am, baseball is a very regional sport. 

[00:15:29] Unlike NFL football, which is a, everybody watches football.

[00:15:32] It's a game I'm watching. I don't care who it is. In baseball, it's really regional. Like you, you have your team. And a lot of people don't know what's even going on in the rest of the league so much. So now you're expanding your content offering out and you're running about baseball as a whole. And not just the New York Yankees.

[00:15:47] You need to be very careful about what you're doing. You need to think about how you're going to keep your current audience who's not going to want this. And it's going to think that your identity is now diluted. Once that identity is diluted, what just happened to you happen is that the connection dissipates.

[00:16:01] So once the connection disappears or the connection weakens, all breaks loose. So it's the same thing with your business offering. 

[00:16:08] Like you need to be very careful how you expand. And how you pivot. There should be a natural connection and a natural flow to it. Bad example of this is Jaguar, right?

[00:16:18] Like they redid their whole thing. I don't know what is the connection between what they were? 

[00:16:22] Which I love Jaguar, I thought they were cool as anything, 

[00:16:25] I know nothing about cars. So like that, the people who like cars, like you're a total idiot, like whatever, I like them.

[00:16:30] And now to what they are. I don't know what they are. There's no connection between the two things. You just lost, you lost everybody by doing that. 

[00:16:36] Crystal Waddell: I think they were late to the party. I think they'd already had this plan in motion. And then something culturally shifted in the United States. And whatever their plan was, they were so deep in it.

[00:16:47] They're like, we're going to do it anyway. You know what I mean? And so like globally, I can't tell you what that's but it just doesn't. Fit like what's happening here for sure. 

[00:16:56] Mordy Oberstein: There's no connection. There's no like flow. I saw a thing of they, the reason why they said they did it was because originally if you go back to the 1960s, like they were like super innovative, like nothing looked like a Jaguar.

[00:17:08] It was completely different. It was like, they didn't copy anything. So now if you know that history and you had that like slogan, like copy, nothing. Okay, like I see. 

[00:17:19] That kind of makes sense why you did that. You know who knows that history? Absolutely freaking no one. 

[00:17:24] Crystal Waddell: That's true. That's true.

[00:17:25] I was like, Oh my gosh, pop quiz. I don't know. Yeah, I 

[00:17:28] Mordy Oberstein: didn't know that. I was watching a random YouTube video about it. I happen to okay, so I guess that kind of makes sense. And you are going back to your roots. 

[00:17:36] But you have not made that connection, you have not communicated that connection at all.

[00:17:41] And you've now lost both the people who did like you. Like I like Jaguar, but now I don't like them. And the people who didn't like you now really don't like you. Yeah. No one likes you now. 

[00:17:49] Yeah. No one. 

Jaguar and Baseball Analogies

[00:17:50] Mordy Oberstein: No one likes you, Jaguar. Everybody hates you. 

[00:17:52] Crystal Waddell: Unfortunately, I could never afford a Jaguar. At least not yet.

[00:17:55] So I didn't know too much about Jaguar in the first place. But I do recognize what you're talking about with the Yankees. Because if I was a Royals fan or, or, Yankees guy starts talking to Royals people or whatever, I could see the Yankees people being like, what the heck? What is this?

[00:18:09] And like you said, It just it actually creates some distrust there as well. 

[00:18:14] Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. Huge distrust. You know where you see it? Cause it's it's okay. Baseball, we'll go back to baseball. And by the way, I never had a Jaguar either. My friend, from Seattle. His father was a Jaguar mechanic. Like he only fixed Jaguars.

[00:18:25] So he had an old Jaguar, which was cool. That's why I like Jaguars. 

[00:18:29] It always broke by the way. But anyway yeah. 

Distrust in National Announcers

[00:18:31] Mordy Oberstein: So baseball is like super regional again. So you have like your local announcers except, and it's amazing how bad of a brand major league baseball is. If you want to learn like bad brand marketing, go watch a major league baseball does.

[00:18:43] What they do is for the playoffs. They have national announcers. So all of a sudden, all year long and baseball's a long season. 

[00:18:51] It's 162 games. It is a grind. I love it. I'm sad when baseball's over. It's now what do I do with my life? Watch the Steelers! 

[00:18:59] Yeah, but there's 16, 17 games, like once a week, like whatever.

[00:19:05] I'll watch it. I'll watch a random like Reds Pirates game. Like I just like baseball. I find, I just find it soothing. It's like nostalgic for me. All right, I'm a weirdo. I get it. 

[00:19:14] When the playoffs come around, they go national broadcast. So think like ESPN, let's say, or Fox Sports gets the games.

[00:19:20] So you're spending 162 games from the very end of March. Through the end of September with one announcer. One crew. 

[00:19:31] And then all of a sudden, the most important games is some random announcer. Baseball people like fans lose their minds. How does it express itself? It

[00:19:40] expresses itself as, Oh, that announcer.

[00:19:42] Oh, he's leaning towards the other team. He doesn't like my team. 

[00:19:45] And this is why you like, you need to be tuned into what people are saying. And the manifest content and what they latently mean. 

[00:19:52] You need to be able to read into what they actually mean and what's actually going on internally with them.

[00:19:56] What the baseball fan is saying there is: I am used to my guy being for my team. And obviously the Yankee announcer leans Yankees. And the Reds announcer leans Reds. They work for the Reds. And they work for the Yankees. That's what I'm used to. That's what I like. That's what I can identify with. 

[00:20:13] Who is this neutral person?

[00:20:15] This neutral person, I don't like neutral person. Neutral person is actually not neutral. I look at him as negative. Anti my thing. 

[00:20:22] What Major League Baseball should do, by the way, is they should have one national announcer. So let's say Fox Sports gets the contract for the playoffs. Whoever is in that series, bring on as the co announcer, the local person.

[00:20:34] Simple. Okay, done, but they suck at branding. So they don't do that. 

SEO and Content Creation Insights

[00:20:38] Crystal Waddell: So this is an interesting intersection with content creation and subject matter experts. 

[00:20:43] Cause I feel like people are starting to be able to read and understand that whoever is talking to me doesn't know this. Or doesn't understand me.

[00:20:53] And sometimes I think it's because of the silo. Because people get so far away from their customer that they're not even they're not utilizing the people who are right next to their customer. 

[00:21:02] It reminds me of education at the top level, who is writing this stuff? Who is coming up with these ideas of what we should be doing in an actual classroom?

[00:21:11] They're not connected. 

Nuances in Professional Expertise

[00:21:12] Mordy Oberstein: Have you ever gone to the I ever had a medical issue and then you've gone to Google, you read whatever. 

[00:21:17] And then you go to the doctor and you ask them the same question and the answer you're getting back, it's so much more nuanced. 

[00:21:23] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. 

[00:21:24] Mordy Oberstein: So it's like that with everything.

[00:21:25] We just don't like, don't realize it. So I don't know, like we're writing about SEO. We're writing about baseball, like going to a real baseball person. 

[00:21:33] The way that you're speaking, all of that, like subtlety is not there. 

[00:21:37] And I could see it. Imagine I was a doctor reading like WebMD. 

[00:21:40] It's so apparent to people who are in that. That you're not that. Because we're just so concerned about performance metrics. 

[00:21:47] We're not even thinking about that. I use that way too often. 

[00:21:51] That's like that's a big pronoun. 

The Importance of Situational Writing

[00:21:52] Crystal Waddell: But I know what you're saying because it's like when you're in it and somebody is describing it and they've never done this particular activity before and they're describing it.

[00:22:03] It's Hey, I've played this game or I do this thing. I know that when I do X, Y, Z, these are the possible outcomes. You're not even addressing that. 

[00:22:11] Mordy Oberstein: You're right. You're not even addressing the possible outcomes. And that's how you can tell the difference with someone who's writing well. Who's not writing well. 

[00:22:18] Like I've coined as like situational writing.

[00:22:20] But, if I was in this actual situation, like that's a possible outcome, that's a possible outcome, and that's a possible outcome. Let me address it. That happens. This happens. That happens. This. Imagine like teaching, right? I know top tips for teachers make sure you have a lesson plan.

[00:22:33] Okay. What happens when the lesson plan falls apart, y'all? What do you do then? 

[00:22:37] Because most of the time, like the less it's not going to work the way you thought it was. 

[00:22:42] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, you know what has resonated with me so much more as I've gotten older? That Mike Tyson one. And it's everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the face.

[00:22:50] Mordy Oberstein: I love that. Yeah, 

[00:22:52] it's such a great quote, right? 

[00:22:54] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, that is so true. What am I going to do now? Okay. 

Branding and Digital Winter

[00:22:59] Crystal Waddell: Another thing that you talked about that I thought was really interesting is this idea of brand and just business moving offline. Yeah. 

[00:23:07] And what does that even look like? 

[00:23:09] Mordy Oberstein: Oh man, like this is like the hottest of all hot takes.

[00:23:12] So I have this like thing that I think we're entering like a digital winter. Where there's so much noise and so much chatter. I have a video coming about this on Thursday. I don't know when this episode comes out. 

[00:23:23] It's on my LinkedIn as of December 13th. I scheduled my post. And there's just so much noise and so much, you just ignore it.

[00:23:34] It's like menu fatigue. There's you don't notice what's in a menu because there's so much in the menu. Like I'm not even looking what's in the menu of this website. 

[00:23:40] I completely bypass it. I just look at the CTAs. The entire internet is that. There's so much coming at you.

[00:23:46] There's so much noise. And it's so much of the kind of crap that you're talking about. 

[00:23:50] Where it doesn't actually resonate because it doesn't actually speak to me because it wasn't written by anybody who has any clue about me whatsoever. So I feel like we're entering this like digital winter. And I think like the answer to that digital winter is resonance.

[00:24:02] Like you have to resonate. Which means like focusing much more, speaking to a specific audience much more. 

[00:24:08] And getting much more out of like terms of revenue out of your audience and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the issue is, and I saw a stat. 

[00:24:14] I always forget the stats. I'm a marketing guy.

TV Ads and Resonance

[00:24:17] Mordy Oberstein: Brands running TV ads. The stat was very positive about like brands running TV ads and the impact on digital. 

[00:24:22] But it made me think, you know what? TV ads really resonate with me. For the most part. 

[00:24:26] If they're done well. Like the stupid State Farm ads. With Patrick Mahomes and like bundling. Bundle-la-rooo-ski Yeah. It's so confusing and it's so like I, you're just trying to throw the word bundle at me. Your keyword stuffing the word bundle. 

[00:24:39] Here's Patrick Mahomes and the word bundle 4, 000 times. That's stupid. Also. I hate Patrick Mahomes. I don't need another dynasty in the AFC. 

[00:24:45] So thank you very much.

[00:24:46] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. See, but they're not targeting you. They're targeting me. 

[00:24:49] Mordy Oberstein: Oh, are you a chiefs fan? 

[00:24:51] Crystal Waddell: Oh, I've grew up in Kansas. I didn't know you grew up in. 

[00:24:54] Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. 

[00:24:55] Crystal Waddell: I'm not offended. I'm okay. Like you and my husband, thankfully you root for the same teams. Yeah. 

[00:25:02] Mordy Oberstein: I'm a Steelers fan. Okay. 

[00:25:04] Crystal Waddell: But I would hate to be in a room with you if you were like rivals. But I think you could actually have some really great conversations. Honestly. 

[00:25:09] Mordy Oberstein: Okay, good. Cause like we had the whole like Patriots dynasty for so long. The last thing I need is another dynasty in the AFC. 

[00:25:17] Crystal Waddell: Everybody loved him, and then all of a sudden, like the last couple of years 

[00:25:22] Mordy Oberstein: The Netflix thing ruined it.

[00:25:23] Crystal Waddell: Oh, I didn't see it.I don't watch h Netflix.

[00:25:26] So now that I know that I'll never watch.

[00:25:28] Mordy Oberstein: Oh, you should watch. It's a great series. 

[00:25:29] Anyway, like his commercials stink. 

[00:25:31] They don't resonate. It's you know what? 

[00:25:33] Wingstop is a good example of this also. I don't get what they're doing in their commercials, other than showing me a bunch of wings. 

[00:25:38] Like they're competing with Buffalo wild wings. Like I know we're getting a little bit off. Like the question. 

[00:25:42] Buffalo wild wings is all about. We are a place where we get you.

[00:25:46] You're like, you're a sports nut? We are your people. Come and be with your people. 

[00:25:50] Yeah. It doesn't resonate with me because I'd rather just watch it at home. Not with people, but okay. Like I get what they're doing. And it resonates. 

[00:25:58] Wingstop is the opposite. Wingstop should be for me.

[00:26:00] You don't have to go out to be with people. You can park right on your couch and be super happy right at your house with the same food. 

[00:26:09] But they don't have any messaging around that. I know. I know they're trying to, by the way, because if you look at all of their commercials. 

[00:26:14] It's people in their house, people in their car.

[00:26:17] So they are aware and they are aware of what they're trying to do. They're just really bad at doing it. 

Positioning vs. Messaging

[00:26:22] Crystal Waddell: So that brings me to one of the final things that I definitely wanted to touch on that I heard you talking about recently. 

[00:26:29] The separation between like marketing and positioning. And making that connection.

[00:26:35] And that was huge for me. I had to go back in and chat GPT, some of my stuff, with the positioning element in there. And I thought that is just. 

[00:26:44] Mordy Oberstein: Positioning is like underrated. First of the answer, like your last question, like super quickly, I think because there's so much noise, things that happen offline and by the way, offline, I think also means like watching a TV commercial, looking at my TV right now, because you're doing a real life activity, like watching a football game with your family and it resonates.

[00:26:59] It's not like in your face, so much noise. So on the digital landscape, you're competing with all these other like noise makers. 

[00:27:05] But you're also competing with offline where it actually resonates. So lean into that, do things offline, also. 

[00:27:10] Positioning is like super underrated. 

[00:27:12] I debate in my head which is like the brand, like key. Is it like identity? And knowing yourself and having something meaningful? 

[00:27:20] I think from a certain point of view, identity is like the cornerstone. Because everything comes out of who you are. If you don't have who you are, you can't do anything else.

[00:27:28] But leaving that aside, like messaging for sure is like the third wheel. Of the big three: identity positioning and messaging, like it's definitely not messaging. Positioning is like meta though. 

[00:27:39] Positioning is how you, it's very like existential. It's how the, you slides into the they.

[00:27:46] How does the you, which is you or your identity, how does it slide into the life context and the life situation of the of your audience? 

[00:27:54] And it positioning is where like the magic actually happens. For sure. That's where it happens. It's all in the positioning. 'cause that's where the connection is made between the you and they.

[00:28:04] And that's it. It's a Mac. I don't get like too late. It's a magical place. 

[00:28:08] Crystal Waddell: It is a magical place. It is where the magic happens is where the connection happens. 

[00:28:12] Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. It's where the connection happens. And brands overlook it. Brands get too focused on messaging. I would be happier if they got over focused on identity. 

[00:28:20] Because that would probably naturally lead them to focusing on positioning, but they get lost in the messaging.

[00:28:25] And as I said before, like to me, at least the messaging is by far the least important of the three. 

[00:28:31] Messaging should be a natural outcome of having that strong identity that you know who you are. And the positioning, the messaging should be like, yeah, obviously the messaging is this.

[00:28:40] Crystal Waddell: So who's an example of a brand that does this well?

[00:28:43] Mordy Oberstein: That's a good question. Off the top of my head, who does who does messaging? Like I used to think like the insurance companies sometimes do messaging. Like you're in good hands, like old school insurance, that's powerful.

[00:28:55] That's 

[00:28:56] Crystal Waddell: or 

[00:28:56] Mordy Oberstein: like a good neighbor By the way, Gleyber Torres, who's a player for the Yankees, his call on the radio from the guy who like been the announcer for the Yankees forever, who just retired. 

[00:29:05] Is like a good Gleyber Torres is there. It's so good. 

[00:29:10] Crystal Waddell: Nice. Yes. 

[00:29:11] Mordy Oberstein: Who does a good job? Like positioning? I don't like nobody. I don't know. Who do you think does a good job positioning? 

[00:29:18] It's hard, it's none of the big brands, none of them, I don't want to say none of them, like I'm like, I'm trying to think I felt like Nike did for a long time and then they stopped.

[00:29:27] Crystal Waddell: I'm looking at my phone, trying to look at like some apps. 

[00:29:31] If I've got their app on my phone, then maybe I feel like they get me. Okay. Okay. Chick fil A. For some people who don't like Chick fil A, I get it. 

[00:29:41] But I am for Chick fil A. And I never had waffle fries before I came to North Carolina.

[00:29:45] I thought they were weird. And I didn't like them. And I thought that they were wrong. 

[00:29:50] They do these little Christmas movies in their app. They do like extra stuff for the holidays. And it's I feel like they just do extra for their customer.

[00:30:00] Can you think about creating content for your customer? Putting the user first? We're paying for it on the backside. Don't get me wrong. But at least you feel good about it. Because they're putting so much effort on the front side to show you. . 

[00:30:11] Mordy Oberstein: Yeah. And they can be a polarizing brand also.

[00:30:13] Like they have like their leaders. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting. Okay. I'll give you an example. Actually. 

The Athletic's Effective Positioning

[00:30:18] Mordy Oberstein: Like now that like I had more time to think about it, The Athletic. 

[00:30:21] Crystal Waddell: Okay. 

[00:30:22] Mordy Oberstein: And shout out to Claudio Cabrera, who's the SEO over at The Athletic, who's an awesome dude. But nothing to do with like SEO.

[00:30:29] What The Athletic does is they have like really authoritative writers. 

[00:30:33] Who, by the way, they go out there on their own and have their own side things going on. Which only adds to it. 

[00:30:40] I know ESPN could be a little bit like testy about okay, Stephen A. Has got his own like podcast.

[00:30:45] I get the sense like ESPN doesn't like that. But The Athletic let's say, I'll give you an example. Ken Rosenthal covers baseball for The Athletic.

[00:30:51] He has a a podcast, not a pod. He has a whole network of podcasts. 

[00:30:55] Under the foul territory, like label. But that just makes me more endearing.

[00:30:59] It's great name, by the way. Yeah. For a podcast, foul territory. It's good stuff. It just makes me see him more. And then when he covers it for The Athletic, it becomes more authoritative. And it, what ends up happening is, because he's such a big dude, because of The Athletic, and because of his own thing. 

[00:31:17] When when he covers something, so the Rich Eisens of the world, or the Dan Patricks of the world will cover Ken Rosenthal, The Athletic, set.

[00:31:25] And it just builds up this credibility with them. 

[00:31:28] And it gives it like, it gives them, okay, that the person writing this is not, is someone who speaks to me. The person who's writing this baseball article is somebody who I know because he covers baseball at Fox. And he covered like he covers it on his podcast.

[00:31:44] He's like a real baseball nut. And as a baseball nut, which by the way, it's very important for The Athletic. 

[00:31:49] Because The Athletic is not the New York Times sports section. 

[00:31:52] The New York Times sports section is like. I don't know, like my friend next door who casually likes sports. The Athletic is for me.

[00:31:59] It's like a nut. 

[00:32:00] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. 

[00:32:00] Mordy Oberstein: Someone who like really into sports, who really like lives, breathes and is actually interested in this stuff. Whose wife makes fun of him. What are you even watching and reading? This is insane. 

[00:32:10] Yes. But their positioning is great and they're doing it very subtly. 

[00:32:15] They're doing it by saying the people that we're going to hire are the people who are like real nuts about whatever it is that they write about.

[00:32:21] That's good positioning. Like that speaks to me, personally. 

[00:32:24] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I really like that. Okay. So before we hop off of here, can you tell me about Unify? 

Unify Brand Marketing and SEO in 2025

[00:32:29] Crystal Waddell: What's going on with that? 

[00:32:31] Mordy Oberstein: I've done brand. I got another like weird intersection of like brand and SEO for a long time. I was at Rank Ranger. I was their CMO.

[00:32:36] I grew their blog like 200 percent like year over year. 

[00:32:40] Two years? Over a year? Whatever you want to call it. 

[00:32:42] And I was also like building up their brand at the same time. I've been brand building at Wix. I was brand building at SEMrush. I was brand building at Wix again now.

[00:32:49] So I really love brand building. And like I would get people coming in Hey, can you do keyword research for me? I'm like, I don't want to do that anymore. 

[00:32:55] So I'm like, okay, like I am doing a brand refresh for my personal brand a little bit. I don't not do SEO anymore. I don't not talk about SEO anymore.

[00:33:03] But I also really do focus on brand. So unifybrandmarketing. com. You can check it out there. On an X. Look for it on blue sky, whatever. LinkedIn. 

[00:33:12] But it's me basically saying I've always done consulting on the side for years. 

[00:33:16] But it's me like pivoting officially, like saying, Hey, I don't want to do the keyword research for you anymore.

[00:33:21] I like to do the brand strategy for you. 

[00:33:23] Crystal Waddell: That's awesome. Okay. I will definitely drop those links into the show notes. 

[00:33:28] Mordy Oberstein: Links. 

[00:33:28] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, links everywhere. When we go into 2025, we're in 2025. This is the fourth season of my podcast. We're in 2025. 

[00:33:36] What do SEOs need to know about doing SEO in 2025?

[00:33:41] Mordy Oberstein: So again I don't know, like you've, everyone's talking about like brand and SEO. And I can offer you brand marketing tips of what you should know as an SEO, what you should do as an SEO. 

[00:33:49] I think the biggest thing you could do. 

[00:33:51] And I always felt like SEOs are just gonna hate me for saying this. Like SEO should sit under comms.

[00:33:55] Like whoever's running the comms strategy for the company, SEO should sit under that. Often SEO is it's like separate, like renegade. 

[00:34:02] Where the problems start organizationally. 

[00:34:04] Even if you're not under comms, sit with comms. And because, like I said before, resonance is the victor of the new internet. 

[00:34:13] And you're not going to understand what resonates until you understand the brand's positioning, and you're not going to understand the brand's positioning in a deep way until you sit with comms.

[00:34:20] So sit with comms. 

[00:34:21] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, absolutely. If you're communicating in one way to people in, like traditional ways. Then why wouldn't you want to do the same thing with the internet, or leveraging it same way? 

[00:34:34] Mordy Oberstein: It seems so obvious, but we have been on this drug called performance for years.

[00:34:39] Yeah, it's a drug. And it's so easy to get caught up in it. Because it's so there. Here are the metrics. Here's how many people came, here's how many people like this thing, here's what my reach was, here's the traffic, here's the bounce rate. 

[00:34:50] And it's so easy to get focused on wanting more of that, that we don't talk, we don't think about the wider, we don't think about maybe not performing as well. But performing better, if that makes. 

[00:35:00] Crystal Waddell: Yes, because we lose control in some ways when we Yeah, we do it without metrics.

[00:35:07] Yeah. You are so awesome. I knew this was going to be so much fun. I had a great time on your podcast. I am so grateful that you took the time to come on mine today. 

[00:35:16] thank you so much. I appreciate you.

[00:35:19] And I'm always following your stuff. I really appreciate what you put out there.

[00:35:22] Mordy Oberstein: Right back at you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I love what you're doing and keep doing what you're doing. I keep sharing. It's awesome.