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The Simple and Smart SEO Show
Blogging Isn't Dead: Advice from Trio SEO's Steven Schneider
In this episode of the Simple and Smart SEO Show, I chat with Steven Schneider from TrioSEO, an agency that specializes in organic SEO services.
Steven shares his journey into SEO, starting from blogging in college to building a successful SEO agency.
1. The evolution of affiliate marketing and its current challenges.
2. The importance of high-quality, human-written content.
3. How AI tools can assist but not replace humans in SEO.
4. Practical strategies for small businesses to enhance their SEO.
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SEO and Blogging: Expert Advice from Trio SEO's Steven Schneider
[00:00:00] Steven Schneider: I think that once people start to realize the power of SEO. That's where the switch between everyone thinking that it's like this black magic.
[00:00:07] It's so unknown and what it can produce. How it works. And just the total upside of it.
[00:00:12] But I think that once you realize the power of it and get that taste for it.
[00:00:16] You realize, Oh, this is actually something I going to dedicate the next couple of years to for my brand or my website.
[00:00:22] And with that consistency, it definitely plays dividends down the road.
[00:00:25] Crystal Waddell: Welcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show. The podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence.
[00:00:41] Thank you so much for being here.
[00:00:42] Let's jump into another great episode.
Introduction to the Podcast
[00:00:44] Crystal Waddell: Welcome back to the simple and smart SEO show podcast. I am here with another new LinkedIn friend, Stephen Schneider from Trio SEO.
[00:00:52] And today we are going to have a long, but short But long conversation about SEO and blogging, and I'm so excited.
[00:00:58] So Steven, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the simple and smart SEO show podcast.
[00:01:03] Steven Schneider: Thanks, Crystal. I'm so excited to be here. It's gonna be fun.
[00:01:05] Crystal Waddell: Awesome. So of course, we need to know a little bit about you. What do you do? Who started trio SEO? How did you get into blogging?
[00:01:12] Give us all the deets.
Steven's Journey into Blogging and SEO
[00:01:13] Steven Schneider: Yeah. So I got into blogging in my second to last year of college, I was on the fast track to do finance, do the MBA thing and kind of go into, some sort of investment banking or whatever.
[00:01:23] Made a ton of money. And my friend at the time showed me affiliate marketing back in the day through Amazon referrals and kind of all that sort of stuff.
[00:01:30] And it pretty much said that he had this like secret side business that no one knew about.
[00:01:32] And, it's yeah, whatever, like you're probably making a couple bucks He's actually making 15, 20 grand a month doing this.
[00:01:37] And I was like, okay! Let's scrap everything. Never going to get the MBA.
[00:01:41] Let's just divert all energy to this.
Building a Successful Blogging Business
[00:01:43] Steven Schneider: So pretty much did that. Long story short, he and I started building websites in college small portfolio of sites.
[00:01:49] Merged with his other business partner. And. We went into pretty much doing that full time straight out of college and had a portfolio of about 40 different blogs and grew that to seven figures.
[00:01:59] And we're producing around three to 400 articles per month. Site wide. It was just a massive full scale operation. And ran that course. A lot of fun, no hard feelings. I still golf with him weekly.
[00:02:10] We're great friends. And that kind of led into my familiarity with blogging and SEO and just learning everything about that world.
[00:02:18] And then fast forward to, I want to say it was like, last 2022, 2023. Right around that cusp.
Transition to LinkedIn and Trio SEO
[00:02:24] Steven Schneider: And I found or rediscovered LinkedIn. And what this new version of LinkedIn that we all know and love.
[00:02:29] And Since then, I was dabbling many people and networking a little bit.
[00:02:32] And I met Connor Gillivan, who's a great SEO, really well known in space. And he, I just hit it off talking about random stuff and life.
[00:02:40] And texting and whatnot. And then one day, I was just why haven't you created an SEO agency? And He and his other partner, my current partner Nathan Hirsch.
[00:02:48] They have a couple other side businesses and this was post they exited their other big kind of company called free up and long story short, it was like, why aren't you guys doing SEO?
[00:02:55] This is just such a natural fit. And they're like we have it all mapped out and we know exactly what we want to do.
[00:03:00] But we don't have a operator or someone who can see it through and run all of the operation side of things. And I pitched myself. And told him what I did previously.
[00:03:08] I was like, this is a perfect fit. I'm looking for my next opportunity. And they did have everything planned out. They showed me like a 25 page document on marketing strategy and names and services and everything like that. And I was like, this is exactly what I know how to do. It was the same exact system from my first company that I had.
[00:03:24] And so I pretty much just rebuilt that same infrastructure. We had it off the ground in 60 days. And we've been taking clients for about six months now.
[00:03:32] But yeah we focus on blogging specifically bottom funnel content.
[00:03:35] To drive real targeted customers, not just top of funnel organic, random traffic.
[00:03:41] And from there on out, we just try to ensure that all of the content going to sites is the best content possible for SEO.
Understanding Affiliate Marketing
[00:03:48] Crystal Waddell: Okay, so we have to back up to the fact that you're making 15 to 20, 000 a month.
[00:03:53] With this blogging situation. Because I think a lot of times when we talk about SEO, there's so many different types of SEO.
[00:03:59] And a lot of advice, I feel like that is on the Internet really has to do with Affiliate blogging. And monetizing blogs in that way. So can you explain like how that was set up back in the day.
[00:04:09] And with the, 15 to 20 K a month return, can you tell us like what did that mean to have a portfolio of 30 blogs or whatever you said?
[00:04:16] Steven Schneider: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much the affiliate space as it's well known or, it's a dying breed.
[00:04:21] But if you ever were to Google something that's like best X, Y, Z products.
[00:04:25] So like best hiking jacket, 2024 there'll be a list of products, roundup compared all that sort of stuff.
[00:04:31] Whether it's on New York times or CNN or wherever you're looking at, if you hover over those links, they typically have a affiliate tracker ID in them. And that pretty much just shows Amazon that that website produces that traffic.
[00:04:43] And then that website will get a piece of the pie, so to speak. When there's a sale. The great thing about Amazon and most of the affiliate suppliers is that they offer a cookie.
[00:04:52] So if you send someone to Amazon and they don't even buy the product that they originally intended to buy. And say, they just go on a shopping spree randomly, cause it's Amazon.
[00:04:59] You still get a cut for anything that they buy within that 24 hour period.
[00:05:02] So regardless of that original product is there, just because Amazon is the powerhouse that it is.
[00:05:06] You can rack up a bill for someone's groceries and not even know it.
[00:05:10] Over time it's a numbers game. The more articles you produce that have all this traffic.
[00:05:14] And then as you create a really sound SEO strategy, you just have all this traffic funneled to Amazon. Or whatever supplier it is and go from there.
[00:05:22] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. You said rack up a bill, but I think you mean as they rack up their bill, you rack up commissions. Yeah. But I had heard that, Amazon commissions were, I don't know, maybe back then they were higher, but I've heard over the years that they've decreased, and that type of thing.
[00:05:35] And how much traffic do you have to be sending them?
[00:05:38] Like how likely is it that you can make thousands and thousands of dollars with Amazon affiliate links now?
Challenges in Affiliate Marketing Today
[00:05:43] Steven Schneider: Yeah, it's definitely harder than it was. Amazon's gone through I want to say two or three cuts. I wasn't involved in the first cut.
[00:05:48] I was involved in the second and third and that really hurt. That was one of the reasons that kind of first company that I was in decided to just switch gears and pivot really suddenly.
[00:05:56] But yeah, you have to have a decent amount of traffic. It's I think the average rate now is like anywhere from three to 5%.
[00:06:01] So if you sell a hundred dollars barbecue, it's, 5% of that.
[00:06:05] So it's definitely gonna be a numbers game, like I said, but you are also using the assumption that people buy more than one product.
[00:06:11] Or they don't even buy the product and they buy something random. So that happens a lot too.
[00:06:15] But other suppliers outside of Amazon, there may be a 30 day cookie. So if they go back to that supplier in 30 days that sale, so to speak, over a 30 day period is still yours.
[00:06:25] So it's depends on what suppliers are used and what products you sell. The commission rates, how high the ticket price item is.
[00:06:31] But yeah, for number's sake, like our some of our sites were in the like 6 figure organic traffic range per month. Yeah, we were definitely in the golden era of kind of what I would say for affiliate marketing and SEO.
[00:06:41] Crystal Waddell: And would you say that with the recent updates over the last year or so from Google.
[00:06:46] That a lot of affiliate sites have been hit by say, helpful content or any of the other rollouts from Google?
[00:06:54] Steven Schneider: Yeah, I definitely, I wouldn't even advise people to get into it nowadays. Unless you're coming at it for more of a social affiliate person.
[00:07:01] Maybe like a YouTuber who can, vouch for the products. Review them personally, and then direct people there.
[00:07:05] But yeah the game of strictly just writing hundreds of articles per month and putting your affiliate links in them and getting that golden, pie is it's long gone.
[00:07:14] I would say, unfortunately.
[00:07:16] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I remember it wasn't even until like probably 2021 or 2022.
[00:07:21] That I had that revelation that I was being sold to every single time I went to Google.
[00:07:25] Because I took a, an affiliate marketing course about blogging. And I really feel like I know the person who ramped this up, times a million.
[00:07:33] And probably impacted a lot of these updates. Even though some people say, Hey, it's just, about, it's about the big guys more than the little guys.
[00:07:39] But I have my own conspiracy theories on that. But that was the first time I realized that, oh my gosh, when you click on that number one result, there's a reason why it's number one. And it's not just number one because it's trying to give me the best possible, whatever that I'm looking for.
[00:07:54] It's because somebody knows how to use SEO and other internet tactics or whatever.
[00:08:00] To show up number one. And then sell me something.
[00:08:03] And I always try to tell people who are in my group, I'm like, look, there's a lot of different things on the internet that are free.
[00:08:08] But everything comes with a price.
[00:08:10] And I think I heard it said somewhere, if you are not paying for something, like say social media or whatever, then you are the product.
[00:08:18] And so I love, Learning and sharing those things because some people just gloss over it and be like, okay, whatever.
[00:08:23] But from a business perspective It's really important to understand that.
[00:08:27] Yeah, there's a lot going on business wise behind the scenes.
[00:08:31] That is not Necessarily disclosed, like verbally maybe you could read through all the terms of service, I thought it was interesting.
The Power of SEO
[00:08:37] Steven Schneider: Yeah.
[00:08:37] I completely agree.
[00:08:38] I think that and that was the thing that was really eye opening to me once I learned seo because You know when I started from scratch, I was so green.
[00:08:44] And he even told me What seo stood for I had no idea what that was or even how it worked.
[00:08:50] And so once I started to peel back the curtain, so to speak I realized that oh there's actually an seo strategy behind every single search result. And this website.
[00:08:57] And why it's beating this and The content's like this and maybe the niche is over here.
[00:09:01] And so I definitely take it with a grain of salt just being tied to it.
[00:09:04] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. I have a small group called the SEO squad where I help entrepreneur businesses, get found online.
[00:09:10] And I do one on one calls with them. And just this week, I think it was yesterday. Was it yesterday?
[00:09:14] Maybe it was two days ago. One of my clients, she was like, wait a second. You just see the light bulb go off. It's like she wanted to rank for something in Charlotte, North Carolina for photography.
[00:09:23] And it's it clicked to her that, Oh my gosh, I can control this?
[00:09:27] Like she had no, Zero content on our homepage, and she wanted to be known for this particular keyword.
[00:09:33] So I was trying to explain to her this is, these are the keywords that need to show up here. So Google understands what that homepage is about.
[00:09:38] Like what you actually do and what you want people to do on your page. And I love seeing that light bulb go off. Because it's wow, instead of the internet happening to us, we as business owners can actually control some of our, What do you call that?
[00:09:50] Our destiny, online.
[00:09:51] So I love that.
[00:09:51] Steven Schneider: Yeah.
[00:09:53] And I think that once people start to realize the power of SEO, that's where the switch between everyone thinking that it's like this black magic.
[00:10:00] It's so unknown and what it can produce. How it works. And just the total upside of it.
[00:10:04] But I think that once you realize the power of it and get that taste for it, you realize, Oh, this is actually something I going to dedicate the next couple of years to for my brand or my website.
[00:10:13] And with that consistency, it definitely plays dividends down the road.
[00:10:16] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, absolutely.
Client Success Stories
[00:10:17] Crystal Waddell: And that reminds me of another a client of mine.
[00:10:19] She's in the small group, but we worked together a couple of years ago.
[00:10:22] And she came, it was like a testimony, even though it wasn't even, planned that way. But it was like a testimonial because she said, this particular blog that I have.
[00:10:29] It's taken a little over a year for it to really gain momentum. But now it's ranking and it's ranking above one of the national brands of crayons.
[00:10:39] Ranking above Crayola for a particular keyword. And so it's that is really exciting when you see an entrepreneur taking on a big brand.
[00:10:46] And beating them in the search engine results pages.
[00:10:49] Yeah, that's a great feeling. Yeah. I love that. It makes things possible. Okay.
Navigating SEO Strategies
[00:10:52] Crystal Waddell: You talked a little bit about how you got into SEO.
[00:10:55] But what would you say, like with all of these changes, that have happened over the last few years.
[00:10:59] What do you think is the hardest part about SEO today?
[00:11:02] Steven Schneider: I think the hardest part about SEO nowadays is trying to understand the strategy. And why it works.
[00:11:09] Because there's so much information out there that it can feel almost like information overload.
[00:11:14] When trying to figure out what a good source is. Or where to start.
[00:11:18] And there's also so many technical terms out there. And, you know, various avenues of SEO.
[00:11:23] We have technical, off page, on page.
[00:11:25] And just those buzzwords around that.
[00:11:26] But once you dive into each of those categories and peek under the hood. There's a whole another 1000 subjects per each of those.
[00:11:32] I think just simply knowing where to start is probably 1 of those difficult parts.
[00:11:35] And also just knowing where to prioritize your time and resources.
[00:11:39] Crystal Waddell: So do you have any tips on that? Like really uncovering where the best starting place is for your business?
[00:11:44] Steven Schneider: Yeah, I'd say, my partner, Conor Gillivan has a great SEO course he just released.
[00:11:48] He's one of the top SEOs on LinkedIn. People out on LinkedIn across the board are putting out tons of great information podcasts like yours.
[00:11:54] There's tons of resources. But I'd say steer away from anything that seems. Overly salesy on YouTube. If it seems too good to be true, trust your gut there.
[00:12:02] And try to lean more toward an authentic creator or someone who's been there and scaled that. It's what I always like to recommend.
[00:12:07] If someone's suggesting that they know SEO and doesn't have the actual evidence to say, Hey, look what I've created as a result of SEO, steer away from it.
[00:12:16] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. And that's one thing I've learned too, like through talking with people in the SEO community.
[00:12:21] I've learned that there are people who work in the field of SEO that don't actually optimize websites, that they've never actually, yeah.
[00:12:29] And I'm thinking, wow, and one of my friends pointed out, he was like, look, just because someone's worked for 10 years in search engine optimization type roles.
[00:12:38] Doesn't mean that they have 10 years of actual experience. And, when you're in there and you're doing it every day, that's when you understand like the changes and like what makes the impact and all that type of stuff.
[00:12:48] Definitely, I agree with you to find somebody who's actually getting their hands dirty.
[00:12:52] And can show you, what they're doing and how they're implementing a particular strategy or tactic.
[00:12:57] That's really important because otherwise you could be getting information that's from 2017 blogging, and affiliate marketing and that type of stuff.
[00:13:04] And it just doesn't work anymore. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
AI in SEO and Future Trends
[00:13:08] Crystal Waddell: So what are your takes on AI and SEO? Do you guys use AI in your content creation there at Trio SEO?
[00:13:16] Steven Schneider: So we use AI and look at AI as more of a tool. It's never, Going to be knock on wood, a direct replacement for people.
[00:13:23] And so what I mean by that is all of our content is still human written, human edited.
[00:13:27] We're using tools like Grammarly, which obviously offers suggestions to facilitate the process, save time when doing so.
[00:13:34] We're using more advanced SEO tools to create things like outline briefs and stuff like that. But at the end of the day I think people still need to take AI with a grain of salt, and.
[00:13:43] Kind of recognize that it's in its earliest form of where it's going to be in the next 20 years.
[00:13:48] Google is even cracking down on it. Like we saw in the last Google update. So if you're strictly just using Chat GPT to create an article.
[00:13:54] And copy and pasting and putting out on your website. You're putting yourself at a lot of risk.
[00:13:57] We like to always say that it's more of a resource for us, that we can pull these different levers, so to speak.
[00:14:02] And see how it can benefit the end result. But if you just close your eyes and start using it blindly, then you should be expected to feel the repercussions of that.
[00:14:09] Crystal Waddell: Did you have clients who pushed you to use AI, once they heard about, even though we're calling it AI, they're large language models that use like predictive texts to write things.
[00:14:19] But when your clients heard about it for the first time, were they thinking, Oh my gosh, now you can write even more.
[00:14:24] And we want to see more output and that type of thing. Did you experience that as a company?
[00:14:28] Steven Schneider: Thankfully not. We have a pretty a pretty black and white kind of onboarding process with all of our clients.
[00:14:33] And we won't even, Take on clients if they are looking for things like that. More of a way to cheat the system.
[00:14:38] Like we're very clear cut and what we offer, the packages we offer, how we go about it and very transparent across the board from the first conversation we have.
[00:14:45] If someone's looking to fast track their site and do that, we're just simply not a good fit for them. And that's fine.
[00:14:50] No hard feelings. But we tell them like, Hey we have a lot of experience in doing this the correct way. And if you just trust our process, The results will speak for themselves.
[00:14:57] But if you're looking for something different, like by all means, no hard feelings.
[00:15:01] Crystal Waddell: So when we talk about optimization, like I said one of my clients who, experienced some great results like a year after with her blog that ranked above Crayola.
[00:15:10] Sometimes things can rank faster. Sometimes it takes longer. But when you tie results to actual financial numbers.
[00:15:18] How do you explain to clients how search engine optimization will impact their bottom line?
[00:15:23] Steven Schneider: Yeah. So that's definitely one of the more difficult parts, especially with taking on clients.
[00:15:26] Is because we know, but you have to relay that. Just that transfer of knowledge, so to speak, and how we can do that.
[00:15:31] So the 1st thing is, we always put out a realistic timeline. We say, depending on the size of the site or their authority going into it, we can see from day 1.
[00:15:39] Where we expect them to rank. If it's a smaller brand new site, you're not going to rank in 90 days. It's just totally farfetched.
[00:15:45] But if someone comes in and they have a powerhouse of a website, they've been doing SEO for maybe five years plus. And we can come in there and just add content.
[00:15:53] Yeah, you'll probably see results in 60 to 90 days.
[00:15:56] So we just take a look at where they stand currently and what we think is realistic and just relay that. And then the other part of it is just going after the right content.
[00:16:02] So I already talked, touched on briefly that we target bottom funnel content, which means that we go after high intent keywords that are closely related to conversion tactics and things that are actually going to move the needle for their company.
[00:16:13] We're not going after listicles or things that are purely just driving meaningless traffic.
[00:16:17] Because like anybody, we are business owners ourselves. And we understand that for SEO to be a viable long term win, we want results to be seen across the board.
[00:16:26] And Going after the right strategy and kind of making sure that the client approves that and that they have any feedback.
[00:16:30] Maybe they're saying, Oh, let's actually target this over here. And that's great. But just making sure that everyone's on the same page. Communication is so key to the success within trio. And so we just take that every step of the process.
[00:16:41] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, that's awesome. So when people are creating content plans for their website and they're, you're, you talked about bottom of funnel, like how can they tell the difference between a top of funnel? Or middle of funnel? Or bottom of funnel article?
[00:16:55] Steven Schneider: Yeah. This is like where I start to nerd out on SEO and go. This is yeah, so this is where you mix between the data and the psychology.
[00:17:03] And how your customer or your reader is interpreting that piece of content.
[00:17:07] We always like to tell people, all clients that, you know, your business and your brand better than anyone.
[00:17:12] So we can show you what we would interpret as like the best strategy for the next 90 days. But. If you see something clear cut, you're like, no, actually this is a way better opportunity. We'll trust your gut.
[00:17:21] And so when it comes to those keywords, and if you're creating a strategy yourself, you really have to put yourself into the perspective of that client. Or that customer .Or the reader.
[00:17:30] And think about how are they interpreting this content?
[00:17:33] And what is the original search intent from step one? If it's like a versus article, a comparison article, they're probably not looking to buy. They're probably in that research phase. They're probably just looking to expose themselves to new ideas and just learn more about it.
[00:17:47] But if there's a services keyword.
[00:17:50] Or a anything that's like X, Y, Z services, they're probably looking to make a move on, on That intent.
[00:17:56] So it really comes down to, switching gears, putting yourself in their shoes and seeing how would I go about this?
[00:18:02] And then taking it one step further: Google it.
[00:18:04] Like actually search for that term, see what the other results are. See what the competing articles are offering.
[00:18:10] And if they're offering call to actions.
[00:18:12] And you think that there's an intent from what you would personally go and explore.
[00:18:16] It's probably a good chance that it's going to overlap.
[00:18:17] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, and I love that term search intent.
[00:18:19] Because it's like the ultimate descriptor of how you should optimize your content.
[00:18:24] And I'm thinking of S. G. E. that search generative experience, right? What that Google currently has. And then Bing's, search option or whatnot.
[00:18:32] Do you think that those tools, do you think that they are taking away the top of funnel searches?
[00:18:37] And if yes, do you still want to have some sort of presence there so that they would then recommend you?
[00:18:43] Because I've noticed that at the bottom of the summaries, they have their sources linked there.
[00:18:49] And so I just wondered if that was relevant, moving forward, or, it's just is what it is.
[00:18:54] Steven Schneider: Yeah, I definitely see it being relevant in the future. I think it's still in its early adoption phase. And it's not being widely recognized yet.
[00:19:01] I think it's still in this kind of like half in half out thing.
[00:19:04] But yeah, That content is being pulled from somewhere. It's not like it's being created out of thin air.
[00:19:08] So by having that content on your site, you then expose yourself to the opportunity of being recognized. And without a doubt, like that adds your experience. Your authority to your website.
[00:19:18] It adds just topical authority across the board.
[00:19:20] But yeah, I think how people are using it is going to change. I think Google is probably going to experiment with how it's shown or what information is displayed.
[00:19:27] And how it's actually being catered to users. Even if we take a step back and look at the original ad experience of search results. Or like that first page.
[00:19:36] It looks massively different than it did 10 years ago. Or even five years ago.
[00:19:39] So I think that as things evolve, we'll start to see how users interact with them. And obviously, Google's getting that data from somewhere.
[00:19:46] In terms of, where people are clicking or where they're hovering.
[00:19:48] And if they're actually clicking at all but I think hopefully like top of funnel wise it helps alleviate a lot of that, legwork of having to sift through articles.
[00:19:57] I always like to use the expression of like when you're looking for a recipe online.
[00:20:01] There's nothing worse than reading 4, 000 words of content around grandma's historical pastime of creating cookies in her kitchen.
[00:20:07] When it's nah, I just want the recipe.
[00:20:08] I don't want anything else. Hopefully it sifts out some of that stuff.
[00:20:11] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, what bothers me most about recipe blogs more than anything is when they don't have a jump to recipe. Oh yeah. At the top because really, because it's all of the ads, and I'm just like, Oh my gosh, if I see one more pop up.
[00:20:22] Like I am out of here, like actually I'm out of here now because I just saw another one.
[00:20:25] Yeah, I've recipe blogs for years have been like the bane of my existence and I use that as my excuse.
[00:20:31] But one thing that I was wondering, do you guys use any kind of tools?
SEO Tools for Optimization
[00:20:35] Crystal Waddell: To help you in this age of optimization? To find like search intent or to really optimize the articles more than just our human knowledge? Is there anything that you would recommend to help someone with that?
[00:20:47] Steven Schneider: Yeah. So we use a SEOwind. Which is a great tool for creating outline skeletons or briefs, whatever you want to call them.
[00:20:53] And what that does is it pretty much will use AI to. Read and interpret the top 10 search results.
[00:21:00] And then helps you curate data based on that to create your own article outline.
[00:21:04] We're also using tools like Ahrefs. Which is a very widely used tool for data analysis and taking a look at. The search volume metric attached to each keyword.
[00:21:14] The competing results for that and really dive into any analysis aspects of it.
[00:21:18] But there's so many out there, other tools that are-. There's surfer SEO, there's Moz and, there's just like a whole suite.
[00:21:24] There's almost information overload. Again, going back to that same idea.
[00:21:27] But yeah, the big ones for us are Ahrefs and SEOwind.
Internal Linking Challenges
[00:21:30] Crystal Waddell: Surfer is my favorite tool of choice. But I was wondering, because Surfer used to have this thing called GrowFlow, which I love because it gave you internal linking suggestions.
[00:21:40] And I was just wondering, is there a tool out there that does that really well? Or better than any other? Where it analyzes your website and gives you internal linking opportunities?
[00:21:50] Steven Schneider: I am still in the hunt for one as well. So if you do find one, let me know. It's definitely one of the bigger challenges.
[00:21:55] The way that we manage internal linking is that we've actually set up libraries, so to speak, of all the content per client. And then we give that access to writers. So that writers can just organically mention links within.
[00:22:07] But yeah, if you don't have a system set up, it's such a massive hurdle to try and backtrack that.
[00:22:12] So let me know if you find one.
[00:22:14] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I'm so shocked. Like to me, that is one of the lowest hanging fruits of opportunities for an SEO tool. And I'm like, why am I not smarter?
[00:22:22] Because if I was, I would totally create that tool. Because to me, internal linking is one of the most overlooked opportunities.
[00:22:30] Especially for really small businesses who don't have a lot of domain authority. Or who don't have access to content writers or anything like that.
User Experience and Trust Signals
[00:22:37] Crystal Waddell: Like my big push for small business owners is look, control what you can control.
[00:22:42] Because there's lots of different things that you can do for SEO. And to optimize your presence online. But really what we have to start with is identifying like what you can control.
[00:22:51] And if you can start there and do that really well, you might find that you're ranking and outranking larger businesses just because you do that really well.
[00:22:59] So.
[00:23:00] Steven Schneider: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, it's really, there's so many easy levers to pull. And I think like it really comes down to just making sure that your site, all the basics are covered.
[00:23:07] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, so having said that, is there anything else that you would add to that in terms of easy levers to pull for small businesses?
[00:23:14] Steven Schneider: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just making sure that your site is trusted.
[00:23:18] And the experience is good.
[00:23:19] Google's my favorite acronym is eat, it's the eeat. Which is your experience, your expertise, your authoritativeness and your trust. And so, That's not a ranking factor by any means.
[00:23:29] But it's definitely a good content guideline as they've announced.
[00:23:33] And what that pretty much just does is shows that you know Do you have an about page?
[00:23:36] Do you have a contact page? You have a privacy policy page? Is your footer organized? Can people find pages without having to dig through and click through five different things to find one axis of page.
[00:23:47] I think that it really just comes down to user experience at the end of the day, and we really pushed for that hard. And making sure that if people can navigate your website clean and clear.
[00:23:56] Google can too, so it's a win. But yeah, I think that just making sure that it's clean and also that it looks pretty. I think that people overlook that aspect, if your site looks like it was made in 1997. It's not trustworthy. It doesn't look like it should be visited, and Google takes note of that too.
[00:24:10] All of these high level ideas in terms of what seems overly obvious. But are often overlooked many times.
Importance of Professional Photography
[00:24:15] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I can give two specific examples of that just for my small Shopify store.
[00:24:21] Because I used to take pictures of myself and my husband, you know holding the different things that we make.
[00:24:26] We make giant wooden letters and numbers.
[00:24:27] And We just ventured out into the wedding space. And the event space. Doing like marquee numbers, super excited.
[00:24:33] We like have marquee numbers that you don't have to plug in so it's super awesome. They're battery powered and remote controlled.
[00:24:39] So the 1st thing was recognizing that the images and the image quality on your website.
[00:24:44] If it's not a trust signal to Google, it is to the user and for the user experience. And I noticed an enormous jump from one year to another.
[00:24:53] When we started featuring professional photography of our products on the site.
[00:24:58] I never realized that people just need to see that in product result or what's possible.
[00:25:04] And having these beautiful photos really made a difference. I had people sending me messages that said, my daughter saw this photo. And she wanted that.
[00:25:13] She had to have this because, your models look like her or whatever.
[00:25:16] So there's just so many connections that can be made, not just with the quality of the photo, but like the people in the photo.
[00:25:22] So that was one thing I learned.
Enhancing User Experience
[00:25:23] Crystal Waddell: And then also you mentioned user experience.
[00:25:25] Because I think a lot of times people think, okay, I can do that technical stuff of optimization. And do everything right with linking and, all of these extra things. But if somebody comes to your website and it's difficult to navigate.
[00:25:38] Or, for instance let's say they came to your website from somewhere else because they clicked on a picture. Sticking with product photography.
[00:25:45] And that page that they land on after clicking on the picture is a completely different product or your homepage or anything like that.
[00:25:51] That just completely diminishes the user experience because now they're thinking, how do I get to what I was looking for?
[00:25:58] And that's the last thing you want a user to have to do is ask themselves questions about how to get This to work for them.
[00:26:04] Usually they're going to be gone. So I realized early on, even after optimizing, you really have to go back and then take a look at it from that user experience perspective to make sure that it is truly optimized for the user. And not just for the search engines.
[00:26:20] Steven Schneider: Oh yeah. Completely.
[00:26:21] Like imagery is one of the easier things. If you have the resources to have custom images on your site.
[00:26:26] Go take photos of your team and take photos of yourself and put those on a site. Those unique images go a long way. And then, even from a user experience perspective of your blog.
[00:26:35] Making sure that is there an author section off to the side is that linked to something like your linked in.
[00:26:40] And making sure that you recognize that this is a real person behind the website and not a fake persona, just to try and cheat the system.
[00:26:46] Making sure that the pop ups are not intrusive.
[00:26:48] Or maybe there's a TLDR section at the top of your block for someone who just wants to get the gist of it and leave.
[00:26:54] So, all of these things that just make sure that if you were to visit this article or this website in a vacuum.
[00:26:59] Making sure that you're the visitor. What would your experience be like?
[00:27:01] And I think that. More often than not, people get caught up in the fact that it's my brand and I know better than anyone.
[00:27:06] It's, you're not the customer. So putting yourself in that perspective, 9 times out of 10, it's going to make it a win.
[00:27:11] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, absolutely. And T L D R. Can you explain that acronym for me just real quick?
[00:27:15] Yeah.
[00:27:15] Steven Schneider: Yeah. So it stands for a too long, didn't read.
[00:27:17] So what we do for every blog is a snippet at the top of the article, usually after the introduction paragraph.
[00:27:23] And it just answers the intent of the article. So going back to the recipe example.
[00:27:28] If it was a recipe article, like the recipe would be listed steps right after the introduction.
[00:27:33] So that if you just purely wanted that, you have it. And if not, you can continue reading.
[00:27:36] So if it's any sort of like how to article, we'll list the steps alone.
[00:27:40] And then obviously below that is where you can get the more detailed information. And kind of more elaborate pictures, et cetera.
[00:27:47] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, I think what you're saying too is yeah, get to the point, cause that with the recipe blogs, it's yeah, get to the point.
[00:27:52] And the people who really want to nerd out on whatever is the behind the scenes. Backside of the story or whatever, they'll continue down the page, but you want people to have a good experience and with you and your brand and all that stuff. So get to the point, help them find what they need and let them make the decision about what they want to do next.
[00:28:09] Steven Schneider: Absolutely.
[00:28:09] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. I wanted to say one other thing. Because I feel like small businesses right now are so well positioned to leverage optimization strategies.
[00:28:18] Because so many large businesses and large publishers, they've been put in the position of having to monetize their sites in new ways. That they haven't experienced over the last, few decades even.
[00:28:29] Because of that, I feel like the user experience on a lot of those sites has went downhill so much. And they can't really do anything about it because they're having to generate revenue in new ways.
[00:28:39] And so businesses that are smaller can now compete because we can pivot quickly.
[00:28:43] We can make changes on our sites that, give the user a great experience. Or really enhance our product offerings are those type of things.
[00:28:51] So I just think this is a huge opportunity and a huge window for small businesses to really take advantage of optimizing their sites for the user.
[00:28:58] Especially product sites, because that's where your revenue is coming from. It's not coming from, advertisers and questionable advertising.
[00:29:05] Like we really can control the narrative of what's happening on our web pages.
[00:29:09] Steven Schneider: Yeah, I think that you hit the nail on the head there.
[00:29:11] I think that so often than not, especially with product sites, people want to almost feel like they're using that product before it's in their hands.
[00:29:17] And so the more pictures you can show or videos or testimonials or anything that really just alleviates all of that legwork from the get go.
[00:29:25] And that's what we mean by matching bottom funnel to search intent, like making sure that all of the hard work is done.
[00:29:30] So that by the time they get to that page, all they have to do is say, yep, this is for me and then move forward with that conversion.
[00:29:36] And so I think that just the better experience you can create for the end user, the better off you're going to be. Cross the board.
[00:29:41] Crystal Waddell: Absolutely.
Topical Authority Explained
[00:29:42] Crystal Waddell: So I think there's probably just one last question that I wanted to pick apart and throw your way, but it was in regards to topical authority.
[00:29:50] If I could give you a specific example, just riff off the top of your head.
[00:29:53] Say, you have a business that is let's say, an event photographer. And they're trying to create topical authority for their website.
[00:30:02] What does that mean for them as a small business?
[00:30:05] Steven Schneider: Yeah. So topical authority. Like my favorite definition for it, or the best analogy is that. Always picture like an iceberg.
[00:30:12] And so the top of the iceberg that you can usually see is like what you picture is your home page, your about page, all the bare bones stuff.
[00:30:19] But as you build out content on your site, specifically blog content.
[00:30:23] You develop this kind of below the surface iceberg. And you have this this just core understanding of your niche or your industry.
[00:30:30] And over time, the more content you have, the more articles or keywords. Google recognizes that and starts to recognize that, hey, you're an expert in this space you're talking about.
[00:30:39] And so then you start to gain that trust to secure those rankings. And going back to the event space example.
[00:30:45] It could be like what are the best times of the year to, have an event? What are the worst times? Where the best practices to avoid? The challenges of hosting events?
[00:30:54] Could be best local caters. Or, what is like the photography tips and tricks? So all of the micro categories or questions or topics that might come up while you're talking to your customers.
[00:31:06] That's all going to be content that just adds to your expertise and kind of just shows visitors and Google that you actually know what you're talking about.
[00:31:12] And that when it comes to it at the end of the day, that you're a trusted source who can offer these services and perform it as intended.
[00:31:19] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you so much. I know someone in particular who's really going to benefit from that.
[00:31:24] So thank you.
[00:31:25] Steven Schneider: Thanks for not using a harder example.
[00:31:26] Crystal Waddell: Oh, I want to know what's a harder example.
[00:31:28] Steven Schneider: I don't know either.
Ideal Clients for Trio SEO
[00:31:29] Crystal Waddell: Okay, so if somebody wants to reach out to you and to your company, can you tell us who is a good fit to reach out? Because like I said, I work with a lot of micro businesses and entrepreneurs.
[00:31:40] So what type of businesses are the best fit for trio SEO as a client?
[00:31:45] Steven Schneider: Yeah, so we primarily work with people who have a SAAS product or online services.
[00:31:49] We don't deal with local SEO, which is a whole different can of worms.
[00:31:52] Unfortunately we're not a good fit if you do have a local business. But someone who's looking for a long term partner to help grow their content and their SEO strategy.
[00:32:00] If you're also looking for someone who potentially has a writer on hand, we offer outline packages. So we'll do the strategy. And create the briefs.
[00:32:07] And then we can pass that baton over to you, and you can see it through to the finish.
[00:32:10] But someone who just like is excited about SEO. And knows that it's going to be a long kind of journey with us.
[00:32:16] Not someone who's looking to experiment with it. And probably only do it for 30 or 60 days.
[00:32:20] But also just someone who is, able to connect with people online and can drive that authority through their blog.
[00:32:25] And technicalities are always going to be one off. We can work with writers, we can hire people specific for niches.
[00:32:30] No, no niche is ever too complex unless it is. And we'll just be straight up.
[00:32:34] But we're always looking to expand our client base, however we can.
[00:32:37] And we do free audits as well.
[00:32:38] We're up front, whether it's a good fit or not from the start. We're not going to take someone on just because it's a good opportunity for us.
[00:32:42] Like we want your results to happen just as quickly as you do. And as well as they do.
[00:32:46] If we don't see it as a good fit from the start, we'll just be honest and let you know.
[00:32:49] So you can always go to trioseo.com/grow and get a free audit and we'll see if it's a good fit.
[00:32:55] Crystal Waddell: Awesome. Okay.
[00:32:56] And so then I totally lied because I have at least one more question for you.
Key Optimization Strategies
[00:32:58] Crystal Waddell: But so what is like the most important thing that you think a business can do to optimize their internet presence?
[00:33:06] If you had to say, this is the number one thing that you can or should do. What is that piece of advice you would give?
[00:33:12] Steven Schneider: Yeah. So there's two parts on that. So if it's a local business, I would say have absolutely having all of your local kind of checks off.
[00:33:19] So like when I think about that, it's like your Google my business, your Bing business review.
[00:33:23] All of the things that kind of show locally that you are a real business. And adding those links back to your website.
[00:33:30] Also being a few local directories, never hurts.
[00:33:32] Maybe connecting with your local chamber, setting up all those kind of low hanging fruit.
[00:33:36] Things that maybe take you a full day. And it's going to be a grind or pain to set up. But what that does is it shows Google, like you are an active source in the community.
[00:33:44] And that kind of helps drive your local presence. And then if you're not in need of that, what I would say is just making sure that you have a really strong kind of user experience on your site.
[00:33:52] And the kind of interwoven links. So like internal link in your site where it makes sense. Really clean cut navigation. Is your site clunky? Does it look well? Does it operate and function as it should?
[00:34:04] And then also just start making partnerships and start getting back links. I know we didn't really talk about that, but just the votes of confidence across the board.
[00:34:10] So You know, if there's someone in your space that you can trust, reach out to them.
[00:34:13] And say, Hey, I guess there's a way we can collaborate. And see if they're willing to mention your site on theirs. And then that link to your site is the whole name of the game.
[00:34:22] So as you start to get these votes of confidence from other people, that just helps Google recognize that you are a trusted source.
[00:34:27] So I think that those two alone can go a long way.
[00:34:30] Crystal Waddell: Wow, that's amazing. Definitely something tactical that we can implement today. So I appreciate that.
[00:34:35] And then, this really is the final question.
Future of SEO
[00:34:37] Crystal Waddell: Do you think that SEO is going to remain a factor for, internet searches and connecting people with businesses, into the future?
[00:34:46] It's 2024. Is SEO going anywhere?
[00:34:49] Steven Schneider: I don't think so. I think that if anything, it will definitely change. But I think just like all tech, it's bound to change over time.
[00:34:55] Google has an incentive to deliver quality content to people.
[00:34:59] And how that's being shown. It's definitely going to, have different guidelines than it does today.
[00:35:04] We even see that as it was 10 years ago. Google's guidelines are breaking down what is deemed good versus bad. And so I think that the people that pay attention to it, And can install those metrics on their site are definitely going to see it through to the end.
[00:35:18] I think that SEO as it stands is also going to maybe shift away from Google, which will be interesting to see.
[00:35:24] One kind of theory that I'd like to see play out is. It's actually becoming more of a social SEO trend. I think things like TikTok or Instagram and how people are searching for information.
[00:35:33] We're already seeing it pretty common today that, if someone needs to know how to tie a tie, they're going to go to YouTube. They're going to go to TikTok.
[00:35:39] So it might not be the same sort of SEO that we're used to now, but There's always going to be a broad range of topics where people need longer form content.
[00:35:48] You need that topical authority. You need all of those social signals built in. So if you want to succeed online with your website and your brand, SEO is definitely gonna be the name of the game.
[00:35:56] Crystal Waddell: Wow. I love that social SEO. That is such a cool thing. I'm definitely going to explore that in the future.
Conclusion and Contact Information
[00:36:02] Crystal Waddell: Thank you so much, Steven, for coming on today. I know you mentioned, where people could find, the resource to see if you guys would be a good fit for them.
[00:36:09] But if they want to follow you personally, is there a good place for people to follow up with you?
[00:36:13] And I can drop it in the show notes.
[00:36:14] Steven Schneider: Yeah. So LinkedIn is the best place for me. I post daily on LinkedIn, sharing SEO tips and tricks for anyone who wants to read them.
[00:36:21] You can just Google or, you know, LinkedIn, Steven Schneider.
[00:36:24] You can probably throw in TrioSEO. If you just Google, we pop up.
[00:36:27] We do SEO so you can find us pretty quickly in Google.
[00:36:29] Crystal Waddell: Awesome.
[00:36:30] Good SEO. Thank you so much for joining us today. So great. I can't wait to do my follow up Friday episode on what you've talked about today.
[00:36:38] And I know it's really gonna improve my site and help our group and help our listeners. So thank you so much.
[00:36:43] Steven Schneider: Thanks, Crystal.
[00:36:43] Crystal Waddell: Welcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show. The podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence.
[00:36:59] Thank you so much for being here.
[00:37:00] Let's jump into another great episode.
