SEO and Brand Building w/ Riverside.fm's Erika Varangouli

In this episode of the Simple and Smart SEO Show, I interview Erika Varangouli about SEO and its intersection with brand building. 

• We discuss key insights into conversion rate optimization, the historic division between SEO and paid landing pages, and the holistic approach required to build trust and relevance for small businesses. 
• Erika shares her journey from working at Semrush to heading SEO and branded content at Riverside FM, emphasizing the importance of user experience and community engagement in SEO strategies. 
• We also touch on the impact of genuine, useful content over traditional ranking strategies, and highlight the need for small businesses to evaluate their SEO efforts periodically while focusing on delivering value to their audience.
• Erika also shares insights on evaluating and adjusting SEO strategies, the value of answering customer questions, and leveraging platforms like LinkedIn and Reddit for organic growth. 
• Our conversation discussed the need for relevant traffic over mere rankings and underscores the critical role of customer connection in successful SEO campaigns.

Connect with Erika Varangouli
Linkedin

00:00 Introduction and Early Questions
00:40 Welcome to the Simple and Smart SEO Show
01:02 Meet Erika Varangouli
01:37 Erika's Journey in SEO and Branding
02:31 The Intersection of SEO and Branding
03:40 The Importance of Consistency in Marketing
07:06 Personal Stories and Business Insights
16:09 Creating Effective SEO Strategies
18:17 Building Trust and Gathering Reviews
18:28 Understanding Your Audience's Search Intent
18:59 Leveraging Competitor Insights
19:26 Engaging Your Community and Encouraging Word of Mouth
21:08 The Google and Reddit Relationship
24:48 SEO's Role Beyond Lead Generation
27:44 Conversion Rate Optimization and SEO
32:25 Evaluating and Adjusting Your Strategy

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Transcript

Introduction and Early Questions

[00:00:00] Erika Varangouli 2: When I was starting and I was allowed to ask very stupid questions. 

[00:00:03] I would be like, why is that landing page, which is about the same topic as our page on the site. 

[00:00:07] But why is that paid landing page looking so much better than ours?

[00:00:11] And the answers would be like, Oh, but this is for paid. And then my question was, why can it not be for us as well? 

[00:00:18] So historically, yes, I think that's the experiences I had. That conversion rate optimization was more perceived as more relevant to paid. 

[00:00:26] It isn't the case anymore. 

[00:00:28] But in, in my experience as well. 

[00:00:31] It is much underutilized by SEO teams as well. Or in SEO still. 

[00:00:36] So I would encourage people to think about that a bit more. 

Welcome to the Simple and Smart SEO Show

[00:00:40] Crystal Waddell: Welcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show. The podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence. 

[00:00:55] Thank you so much for being here.

[00:00:57] Let's jump into another great episode.​

[00:00:59] Welcome back to the simple and smart SEO show podcast. 

Meet Erika Varangouli

[00:01:02] Crystal Waddell: I am here with someone very special. 

[00:01:05] I have seen her face all over LinkedIn. 

[00:01:07] And she just has the most lovely smile. And she's had some fancy words behind her name. 

[00:01:13] So it was like, wow, I actually get to interview Erika Varangouli. 

[00:01:19] Erika, I'm so excited to have you here today. 

[00:01:21] And just chat SEO and, just be able to just say thank you for, just being such a positive spot in the SEO world. 

[00:01:29] Erika Varangouli 2: Thank you for inviting me. I was super glad to receive your invitation. I'm super glad to be here. 

[00:01:33] And hopefully something useful will come out of it.

[00:01:36] Crystal Waddell: I'm sure it's going to be amazing. 

Erika's Journey in SEO and Branding

[00:01:37] Crystal Waddell: So just so people know, Erika was formerly the head of brand at Semrush, is that correct? 

[00:01:44] Erika Varangouli 2: Yeah, I was at Semrush for four years. 

[00:01:46] It was never dull. So I started with Global Content Strategy. Then, Director of Organic Search. 

[00:01:51] And then moved on to the Brand Department, where I headed International Branding. Then SEO Branding.

[00:01:57] And now recently, I moved on to Riverside FM. And there I head the SEO and branded content efforts. So it's very fresh. 

[00:02:07] But it's also refreshing for now. So, yeah.

[00:02:10] Crystal Waddell: I knew that you were at Riverside FM. 

[00:02:12] And I just thought to myself. 

[00:02:15] I suggested to you that we go to a different podcast recording software at the beginning of this.

[00:02:22] I was like, Oh gosh, what a faux pas. 

[00:02:24] Erika Varangouli 2: Don't worry at all.

[00:02:25] Crystal Waddell: Oh my gosh. That's so funny. 

[00:02:26] That reminds me, I didn't tell you this when we were chatting, but one of the things that really stood out to me. 

The Intersection of SEO and Branding

[00:02:31] Crystal Waddell: Not only this combination of SEO and brand, but the fact that you describe them as having a related relationship.

[00:02:40] One day I was just thinking about it because my friend B, when we started the podcast. She always had this great answer of what is SEO? 

[00:02:45] Or how do you define SEO? 

[00:02:47] And she would say, show up as the answer to a Googled question. I was like, that is great. 

[00:02:50] I never had my one liner until one day I was like, you know what?

[00:02:54] If branding is how people talk about you when you're out of the room.

[00:02:58] Then seo is how the internet talks about you when you're offline. 

[00:03:03] And so I was like, oh my gosh. They're so related.

[00:03:06] And then you said that so I just I wondered if you could just talk about that a little bit. 

[00:03:10] Erika Varangouli 2: Okay, I can talk about it for hours. So let's not do that. 

[00:03:13] But I will say I think something that started more as... I don't want to say wishful thinking. 

[00:03:18] But this was very personal.

[00:03:19] Like I found myself very uneasy with the idea of we're doing online marketing. Okay. You focus just on SEO. And sometimes, you focus just on links. 

[00:03:27] Just on technical. 

[00:03:29] And whatever happens to the rest of the marketing, team or external. 

[00:03:33] It doesn't matter how big or small you are. Or, if you're a one person show. Then whatever else you do doesn't connect with it.

The Importance of Consistency in Marketing

[00:03:40] Erika Varangouli 2: If SEO is about also giving you visibility, right? It's still visibility that is attached to something. 

[00:03:48] So it started as like me being very bored sometimes with being told to stand in the corner. 

[00:03:54] But also understanding how marketing works. 

[00:03:56] So even before we go into the debate of does Google prioritize big brands? Just how many times your brand is being searched matter that much?

[00:04:05] I don't even look at it from such a detailed perspective. 

[00:04:09] It should be, I think. Common sense that you cannot have a very different output when we're talking about SEO or content. 

[00:04:17] And a very different output when we're talking about your brand. 

[00:04:19] Like, you're still being seen by people. This is how people still perceive what they see. And that is attached to something. 

[00:04:29] So the more consistent.

[00:04:31] The more synergies you find there to amplify from one to the other, I think the better the results. 

[00:04:36] So yeah, for me, it's something Very dear. 

[00:04:39] To how I like to do marketing, at least. I'm not saying everyone should, but I like to do it this way.

[00:04:43] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. 

[00:04:44] E commerce brands. I think, particularly. Can really relate to this. 

[00:04:48] One of the first places I learned about this product led SEO or content led SEO. And the intersection of the two, was from Semrush. 

[00:04:55] And I started getting all the little certifications or whatever. It's look at me! 

[00:04:59] But it really made sense to me because I'm like, why would I want to write content about anything else than my product. 

[00:05:06] Or how my product would benefit someone in their life, or how my product would fit into their journey.

[00:05:11] And so that just made so much sense to me that those things would be intertwined. 

[00:05:15] And then. Just that experience that people would have with that particular piece of content. 

[00:05:19] And hopefully their life, being enhanced in some way would then, put them in the path of becoming a customer.

[00:05:25] Like you said, it was common sense. 

[00:05:26] But for some reason, it's just not until you're like presented with it. 

[00:05:31] Erika Varangouli 2: I could use a metaphor. And say let's say you're I don't know, you're creating handmade products, like clothes. Okay. 

[00:05:39] And you're all about eco materials and that sustainability aspect. 

[00:05:43] But then let's say one of the elements that you use is very cheap and it's not sustainable.

[00:05:50] It contradicts everything else. Now, probably a big part of the audience will not notice that. But another part is going to notice. 

[00:05:56] And how that transfers to the model that we're talking about for marketing. 

[00:06:00] Also, there's another thing I'm not very fond of. But let's say you're creating a lot of content for SEO. Or to rank. 

[00:06:06] What you choose to go for is also connected to your brand. 

[00:06:11] Like how genuinely helpful you are, how you approach these topics. 

[00:06:16] How well you understand your audience. These are intersections between SEO and brand. 

[00:06:21] And there, there are so many more. So I could not see how a brand when it talks about itself or let's say on social it wants to be super useful, but then when it's creating content for the blog just to rank for example, which is a very common tactic. 

[00:06:36] It's just terrible content that doesn't care about helping the user. 

[00:06:40] So they're all connected and at the end of the day if we're talking about users potential customers ICPs, whatever anyone wants to focus on. 

[00:06:49] They're still a person.

[00:06:50] There's still someone who will maybe look you up. That's what you want them to do. 

[00:06:55] They will look you up. They will see what you stand for. They can combine the elements of what they've seen from you so far and what the others say about you. 

[00:07:03] So the more consistent, the better. 

[00:07:05] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, absolutely.

Personal Stories and Business Insights

[00:07:06] Crystal Waddell: And I watched my father, build a business from the time that I was probably eight. He quit his job as an automotive manager because he could not get to one of the games that my brother and I were having. 

[00:07:20] And he was not having that as a dad, he was like, I can't get off work, then I will not work here anymore.

[00:07:25] And so he really did. He opened up an automotive repair shop in my hometown with 400 in his pocket. 

[00:07:31] Like I have, Like goosebumps right now. There was just like, Oh my gosh. And he's been an entrepreneur for 40 years. 

[00:07:38] So when you are an entrepreneur, you get so close to your customers. And you're so close to what you stand for and what they know you stand for and how that aligns and how that connects you.

[00:07:49] And that connection is just, it's something that's so special. Like when you're in those one to one relationships or one to small relationships. That's all you have is your name. That's all you have is your reputation. And you don't really have a lot of chances to mess that up. I saw that embodied by my father, which is really cool.

[00:08:08] And it just, it helped me to, Be comfortable with what I value, and to be able to share that with other people. 

[00:08:14] So you're so right. And then the second thing I want to ask you is, you said there was something else you weren't fond of? 

[00:08:19] Erika Varangouli 2: SEO content. 

[00:08:21] Crystal Waddell: Okay. Let's talk about that.

[00:08:23] Erika Varangouli 2: Let me differentiate. I'm a bit skeptical of some widely used terms on what they mean to different people, right? 

[00:08:31] I have no way of imposing what they mean to everyone. 

[00:08:33] I'm just raising my hand to say that maybe we can consider that SEO content is not a thing. 

[00:08:39] Not because if it implies the intent of creating it with search engines in mind, yeah. 

[00:08:45] But it's ended up to mean something like I'm creating content for search engines and I want to rank. 

[00:08:50] And then you get into all the discussion around, is it genuinely helpful?

[00:08:55] How many keywords do you take into account? So for me. Things are much simpler. There's good content and bad content. 

[00:09:02] And then depending on their goal you take the necessary steps to make them work. So of course, if I want to create social content, I'm going to be using many different tactics or ways to say something. 

[00:09:16] But I, I'm not a fan of saying social content, SEO content, email content, like why don't we hear a lot about email content? We hear copywriting. 

[00:09:25] So there are principles, but SEO content, I think is everywhere. 

[00:09:29] And in my head, it has ended up meaning something like, I don't care so much about people. I care about just ranking. 

[00:09:35] I'll just copy and paste everyone else and hope I rank above them.

[00:09:39] And that is a good, that is a bad, sorry, bad thing to do and a bad way to think about content. 

[00:09:46] Crystal Waddell: Yeah it goes back to what you just said earlier about SEO and brand intersecting in so many different ways. 

[00:09:51] And if you are, if you're close to your customer, then, of course, everything's going to be about your customer.

[00:09:56] But the further away. A company moves, from its customer being like the number one focus. That's the minute all of that falls apart. 

[00:10:04] Whether you see it happen in SEO or you see it in like misalignment with, different choices that they make online.

[00:10:11] With content that I create for my own website, I sell giant numbers and letters and I ship them all over the United States. 

[00:10:18] And then I work with parents to create them like photo memory keepsakes for their kids. And so I talked to moms while they're in some of the most emotional times of their life.

[00:10:29] They're either. Having a baby. Or their kids going to school or their kids graduating. Or they're going to college. 

[00:10:35] And so through this journey of SEO, I thought, wow, what are some ways that I can come alongside them? 

[00:10:42] One of the things I've dreamed about for so long is creating like a podcast for them, just like a private podcast that I would use as a lead magnet. 

[00:10:49] But just to say, here are some stories of women who have gone before you through this particular transition, and this is what it was like for them.

[00:10:56] And so I'm working on that right now. And I just I just had one of the moms sign up for this private podcast and on an email yesterday. So it's those are things that may not rank, but just from listening to people like you, and like I mentioned, Andy Holland. 

[00:11:10] Like just being a person that people can trust and come back to for information. And, becoming searchable.

[00:11:16] For that, that feeling, that people get. I think that it's just been such a gift to, come into SEO at this point. 

[00:11:23] Erika Varangouli 2: I'll give you an example. It's very anecdotal. 

[00:11:25] I've had it before as well. Past weekend, my husband and I are looking into laminate flooring for our house.

[00:11:31] And we're sort of onto the websites to choose a flooring. We found the person who's going to do it. So we only need to find that one we like, and then tell him the code. So he orders. I'm starting to get questions of okay, what does eight millimeter versus 12 mean? Is it better or worse?

[00:11:48] How much better or worse? And I'll tell you what I'm doing the usual kind of search on Google like this versus that. Pros cons, whatever it was. 

[00:11:56] And of course top two, three results are the big websites that have all created the same kind of page, right? This is what it means. That's a good, bad the good part, the bad part.

[00:12:07] And then I'm finding like result number four or five. Be very different. So it's like a much shorter blog post and it is not extremely well written. 

[00:12:17] Like there are, some spelling mistakes. And you can definitely tell no one paid a writer to write it. But it actually gives me something very different.

[00:12:27] So it tells me like, this is the difference. Unless you have this kind of environment You don't care so much. But what's more important is to pay attention to what goes under it. And this is what you should be looking for, depending on the House or where it is and the climate conditions. 

[00:12:42] I'm like, this is amazing.

[00:12:44] This is an example I don't know if it's because google is broken lately I hear but that is the exact thing I want. 

[00:12:52] And I think people over time, I'm hoping they have become a bit more skeptical of what they find at the top, because you must combine the information that all of it has looked pretty similar for a long time.

[00:13:05] And it's always pretty much from big brands saying the same things. 

[00:13:09] So brands mean like they can afford writers, or whatever. 

[00:13:12] But here you get firsthand experience. It's not on Reddit, right? So it's a legit website with a person who has been doing it for 40 years. And I can tell, unless it's like some, Extremely smart writer who wrote it in a way to sound like someone who doesn't know how to write. 

[00:13:28] But it's someone sharing firsthand experience and something that actually benefits me. As a person who's looking to invest.

[00:13:35] And oftentimes like when I see product review somewhere. Or I'm trying to buy something, I really appreciate it. If they have answered the questions I have and are important to me. 

[00:13:46] Which I think if you do this for a while. 

[00:13:48] And as you say, you're in contact with your clients, you know what they're asking either because you have to answer it all the time.

[00:13:56] So you figure out it's faster to answer it for everyone or because they get back to you. You answer to them and you think another person may have that question. I might as well write something about it on my side. Okay. That is super useful. 

[00:14:08] That right there can skyrocket the trust users can show to a brand versus another brand.

[00:14:14] So yeah, that, that's anecdotal, but you're saying similar things. And I think we're headed in that direction where it's no longer just, okay. The first result says this, or the first person that comes up on TikTok says that, so I'm going to go and do it. 

[00:14:30] Crystal Waddell: I wake up sometimes with what I feel are these brilliant ideas. 

[00:14:33] And I try to write them down before they fly away. 

[00:14:35] Because I totally believe in Elizabeth gilbert's book, Big Magic. 

[00:14:39] I don't know if you've ever read it. Okay. It's a wonderful book, but she talks about the power of inspiration. And she's teasing, I think. 

[00:14:47] But she says that if you don't take advantage of that inspiration when it comes. 

[00:14:51] That it will fly away and land on someone else. 

[00:14:53] One of these nights when I woke up, I thought, they always say content is king. But I'm like, you know what, it's context that's actually queen now. 

[00:15:01] Like the nuance and context is queen. I love that you said that. 

[00:15:05] And it reminds me that the number one blog I have is one of the first blogs that I wrote. 

[00:15:10] And it's pretty bad in the fact that you can tell a professional writer did not write it. 

[00:15:14] But what I did write about was my experience as a coach and why I felt like senior night gifts were so important. And how important I thought senior night was. 

[00:15:23] And so I think it was an example of what you're talking about right there.

[00:15:27] But it's funny, it's just like bad pins on Pinterest. It's Oh, those are the ones that people are repinning. Really? Like the early stuff. Like I got some better stuff over here, but okay. 

[00:15:37] So. When businesses are, coming into this now, because there is so much similar content about how to do SEO.

[00:15:43] And I'm so glad you said that because someone else that I spoke to said, look, if you want to write content at ranks, you've got to write pretty much what everybody else wrote, or you're not going to rank. 

[00:15:51] And I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to just rank. I want to build relationships with my clients.

[00:15:55] So knowing that and knowing that there's this shift in this balance between like showing up in search and actually showing up in search for the people who might actually be able to utilize your services. 

[00:16:06] What do you think are some of the best questions to ask? 

Creating Effective SEO Strategies

[00:16:09] Crystal Waddell: Like when creating an SEO strategy for your business?

[00:16:12] Erika Varangouli 2: So I think it is it is a hard position to be in. 

[00:16:15] To be a small business or to just be starting. Your starting or your small and others have are ahead by miles. 

[00:16:23] So one way I approach it is. 

[00:16:26] I know we're talking about Etsy previously but there are so many different, let's say community focused, like sales environments.

[00:16:33] One approach is we're going to start building a smaller even community, but get me started. 

[00:16:39] Cause as a business person, I need to start making and generating revenue in order to be able to grow. 

[00:16:45] Okay. If I'm a small seller and I want to target the same stuff that I don't know, Amazon targets or everyone else, like it's going to be hard, right?

[00:16:53] It's going to take me ages. So if we're talking about how to diversify. A strategy to generate revenue, I would say go where your community is or can be built faster, right? 

[00:17:05] There's not one way to go about it. And it doesn't go through google in the first instance anyway. So that would always be my first. 

[00:17:14] Number two would be, I would generally ensure that I have some basics, right?

[00:17:19] Okay. So anything that has to do with my products. Anything that has to do with our descriptions. 

[00:17:25] Anything that has to do with information around how, who am I? Or who's my company, right? 

[00:17:31] Where are we based? Shipping information, returns. All of the things that have to do with trust are super important.

[00:17:38] And I was discussing it with someone the other day. 

[00:17:40] But we cannot ignore the power of the habit. That people have, right? 

[00:17:46] So for years, people are used to buying online on Amazon. Or eBay. And for me, one of the effects this has, is that they don't have to doubt.

[00:17:56] How secure they feel in that transaction.

[00:17:59] How secure they feel their payment. Their personal information is. 

[00:18:03] How safe they feel that they can return it easily. 

[00:18:06] Or, somewhere where they use Klarna. So they don't even have to pay in advance before they see it. 

[00:18:11] So all of these are, maybe, potential obstacles. For someone who's very fresh to it. And hasn't really done a lot of work.

Building Trust and Gathering Reviews

[00:18:17] Erika Varangouli 2: So they have, I think, to over try and build for sure those trust signals. 

[00:18:22] Invite their buyers to leave reviews as much as they can. In their place of choice. 

Understanding Your Audience's Search Intent

[00:18:28] Erika Varangouli 2: And then after that, to be honest, I would still understand my audience. 

[00:18:33] What are they searching for? Even if I don't come up at the top right now, It gives me pointers as to okay.

[00:18:39] What kind of searches are relevant to my audience? 

[00:18:42] To do that. I would also ask questions or answer their questions like we were saying before so before I even go into The thought of how do I rank for something that amazon ranks? Let's say I don't know what that may be. What is What are my customers asking?

Leveraging Competitor Insights

[00:18:59] Erika Varangouli 2: And I would take inspiration from other similar stores, not just competitors. Maybe there's not many in my area or where I am right now. 

[00:19:06] But from other similar products, similar sellers elsewhere, even like from big sellers, like Amazon. 

[00:19:13] What are people asking about this type of product? 

[00:19:16] And I would answer those questions in a useful way.

[00:19:19] And then probably that would be where the intersection with brand comes in, as well, a lot. 

Engaging Your Community and Encouraging Word of Mouth

[00:19:26] Erika Varangouli 2: Is where I build my community? 

[00:19:28] How do I engage it? How do I encourage word of mouth, right? So sometimes You know, building a first kind of core community around you.

[00:19:38] And then encouraging that word of mouth can help you grow fast.

[00:19:42] The strategies that Dropbox, for example, used when it started to, when it wanted to grow.

[00:19:47] Or Slack, bring everyone else and then you'll get a discount. 

[00:19:50] Then those are like amazing strategies to grow or test your product if you're at that phase right now. 

[00:19:56] So I don't believe you can avoid answering questions that people ask. 

[00:20:01] That ties into keyword research, seo and everything. 

[00:20:04] But I don't believe it's a one way street to how you do it. 

[00:20:06] Or, all you can do Is just write similar content to everyone else. 

[00:20:11] You can write very different content. 

[00:20:13] Like What ranks at the top, gives you an indication of what people may want to find under that query. 

[00:20:20] But how are you different? Like how much more do you know about that audience? What else should you answer? 

[00:20:26] How much less should you put there is up to you. 

[00:20:29] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. I like that. How much less, because it's get to the point. Oh my 

[00:20:33] God, so long. I didn't want to read all that.

[00:20:35] Erika Varangouli 2: But yeah it ended up being a self fulfilling prophecy for years now, right? 

[00:20:40] That whatever you see at the top, just replicate it. 

[00:20:43] And kid yourself that you're doing a better job because you're either a better writer or you added like a visual the skyscraper technique. 

[00:20:50] That's not it.

[00:20:51] And I think we're all a bit shaken right now by what we see in Google results. 

[00:20:56] But part of me is super glad this distraction has happened. Not because I like seeing Reddit everywhere. 

[00:21:01] But because I definitely do not like seeing the top results being pretty much the same things. 

[00:21:06] Okay, so this is a pivot.

The Google and Reddit Relationship

[00:21:08] Crystal Waddell: I wasn't really thinking about this earlier, but this whole relationship between Google and Reddit, do you understand that? Or what is happening there? 

[00:21:16] Erika Varangouli 2: I am not one to easily go into like speculation. Just because I know It happens a lot in SEO. And it's not always to the benefit of people around us.

[00:21:25] Officially, what the case is that it can be used or it will be used. That was the agreement for training purposes. 

[00:21:33] So for AI, generative AI, that would be like a source of training. And that, to me, makes a lot of sense. 

[00:21:41] Other than that, whether that triggers like more Reddit listings maybe it looks like it now, although like Reddit was on a pretty steep rise for a long time before this was announced. 

[00:21:53] But I also remember an agreement between Google and Twitter.

[00:21:57] But I don't see many Twitter cards on the SERPs anymore.

[00:22:01] So I'm pretty confident that if that's the case. Like the interaction of users and those signals will affect the end result. I think we can all see. Like the balance having been lost a bit. 

[00:22:14] And like how many forums we see there, not just Reddit, but why that was done, what it serves I don't want to go into the speculation, but it does make sense to me to be used for training purposes.

[00:22:25] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:22:27] Erika Varangouli 2: Part of it. I'm not saying that will be all, but officially, that resonates a lot. 

[00:22:32] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, and it's interesting that you pointed out that Twitter those clips or those things showing up in the search engine results pages may not be happening as much. I don't know. 

[00:22:40] It makes my mind spin here.

[00:22:41] Erika Varangouli 2: That was a statement from many years ago. Maybe they were much more prominent for a long time, but nowadays they're not so much. 

[00:22:48] I don't know why again, like I'm assuming it's down to user signals, but I'm saying that I hope we are not stuck with results that are full of Reddit from now on.

[00:22:57] But it makes sense to, to want to use something like Reddit as basis for training for multiple purposes. 

[00:23:04] That the ethical and other issues that may be creating I'm hoping Google, and I'm sure they employ much smarter people than I am to be able to take care of that. 

[00:23:12] Crystal Waddell: I don't know about that.

[00:23:13] But one thing I do remember is months ago, people were talking about the importance of starting to post on Reddit. And, get a presence there. 

[00:23:22] I had one client in particular that I told her, I was like, I know you have a lot going on. 

[00:23:26] But if you can just take a day a week or something. 

[00:23:28] Just go over there in the forums. And see if you could, comment here or there and just build something.

[00:23:33] And. I just remember that advice coming from somewhere out of the blue months ago. 

[00:23:38] Erika Varangouli 2: I think it's like I remember myself years, many years ago when I was starting as as an SEO and content strategist. 

[00:23:44] Okay, that was like 10 years ago, maybe more. And I was doing research for clients and many of them were smaller kind of companies.

[00:23:53] And part of my advice when it was relevant, I was like look, I see a lot of relevant content, people asking about relevant topics on Quora. On Reddit. 

[00:24:01] We should be there like that should be part of our strategy. And 99 percent of the time, the answer was like, no, we just care to rank on Google. 

[00:24:10] I'm not saying that if they had done it, although I do see results from Reddit from 10 years ago ranking right now, which hurts me.

[00:24:17] But I'm saying again the real Validation point is where's your audience? And what are, what do they want to find out? 

[00:24:24] So if that is where they are, that should be a consideration, not whether that will rank on Google or not. 

[00:24:31] But whether, but rather are they there? Could you add value there?

[00:24:35] And could you see value from doing that? And it's also like a platform where probably Fabrica Brands is a part of reputation management too. 

[00:24:43] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, gosh, there's so many moving parts.

[00:24:45] That actually leads into this next question I had.

SEO's Role Beyond Lead Generation

[00:24:48] Crystal Waddell: Which was about the pros and cons of the statement.

[00:24:52] Let me see if I can get it out without butchering it that an SEO's responsibility ends at generating leads. Do you think that's true? And what parts of it are true? What parts of it leave out any piece or any part of it not true? Any thoughts on that statement? 

[00:25:10] Erika Varangouli 2: So I don't have context for that statement.

[00:25:13] Crystal Waddell: Okay. So how about this? 

[00:25:13] Someone is hired to do optimization for a website. 

[00:25:18] And they believe that, okay, if we drive leads to your website, that's the end of our role. 

[00:25:26] Erika Varangouli 2: I think that the one of the problems I have with this statement is that SEO is often like a very top of the funnel channel, right?

[00:25:35] So. At that stage to be saying that what you're driving to a website is only leads. 

[00:25:40] It's probably displaying some ignorance around how SEO works. 

[00:25:44] However, to the degree that it indicates that sEO's bottom line should affect the business bottom line, and one way this happens is by driving relevant traffic.

[00:25:55] Therefore, relevant traffic is more likely to convert to leads and then conversions. Okay. I hear that. 

[00:26:03] When you first said it, my, my first kind of thought was, is that relevant to, let's say if the statement was about email marketing? Or paid, or social? 

[00:26:13] So I wouldn't necessarily I think. Maybe paid more, but it's not just leads that is part of it.

[00:26:20] I would rephrase it to relevant traffic, relevant people. 

[00:26:24] And that means as well, like relevant to your business doesn't mean they're a lead right now. 

[00:26:29] Do we count as a lead someone who converts a year later. Because they've seen your content 10 times during that time? 

[00:26:36] And how many businesses track that properly? I would question and probably put them on the spot.

[00:26:42] So, no. I don't agree a hundred percent. 

[00:26:44] But if rephrase slightly to say relevant traffic, relevant people, regardless of the stage they're in right now, how far they are from conversion. 

[00:26:54] Then yeah, I would accept that. 

[00:26:55] Crystal Waddell: Yeah, and there's something else that you had spoken about before that.

[00:26:59] I was leading you towards that as well. I was like, I'm so sorry. It's a leading question. 

[00:27:03] But you had mentioned conversion rate optimization as a factor as well. And, Again, coming from this entrepreneurial perspective. And it's okay, this is how you do SEO. Okay.

[00:27:15] All 10 articles on the search engine results page says I should do it like this.

[00:27:19] So I do it like this. I get all of this traffic. Woo hoo. Look at me go. And then I'm looking at my bank account going where's the money? 

[00:27:25] And so that's when it made me stop. Okay, hold on. There's a difference between, like you said, traffic. 

[00:27:31] And relevant traffic. But then I ran into something called.

[00:27:35] User experience. And I was like, now this is what I need to be doing. 

[00:27:39] But it's like you need it all. And so I just, I wondered if that's what you're talking about with like how SEO works.

Conversion Rate Optimization and SEO

[00:27:44] Erika Varangouli 2: Conversion rate, it's definitely not leads still. 

[00:27:47] Cause like with SEO, you might drive people to a relevant page on your site. Or somewhere on your site where you know the.

[00:27:54] The content and the phase that person is in is much higher in the funnel. 

[00:27:58] So they're not a lead unless we consider leads, anyone that will convert eventually even after years. And we somehow track all of that. 

[00:28:04] But conversion rate optimization for me is super important. And because historically and traditionally it's been more associated with paid. 

[00:28:12] That's another problem I had for years when it was like, okay, we're driving a lot of traffic. It is relevant. Like it's relevant to our audience. 

[00:28:20] Our content is relevant. This is our conversion rate, which doesn't make much sense. 

[00:28:25] If they're lower than the funnel or looking at what I think, let's say Create a hypothesis. 

[00:28:30] If I drive a thousand people to this page and I think 10 of them would be ready to convert, why is only one of them converting?

[00:28:36] So that becomes the attachment to your strategy that says, okay, like now I'm optimizing my own strategy. My own content. 

[00:28:45] To be bringing results. And it becomes an indispensable part of it. 

[00:28:50] So yeah, it's not just about leads. It's about what are the results of whatever you have created as part of your SEO strategy.

[00:28:59] Crystal Waddell: So what you just said there, I've never thought about before. I've never heard. But that conversion rate optimization was originally more. With the ad side of. 

[00:29:10] Erika Varangouli 2: Traditionally, yeah. 

[00:29:10] It would be done as like part of optimizing landing pages for paid campaigns. So that was maybe I'm just talking to people of my generation who started many years ago. 

[00:29:21] When I was starting and I was allowed to ask very stupid questions. 

[00:29:24] I would be like, why is that landing page, which is about the same topic as our page on the site. 

[00:29:28] But why is that paid landing page looking so much better than ours?

[00:29:32] And the answers would be like, Oh, but this is for paid. And then my question was, why can it not be for us as well? 

[00:29:39] So historically, yes, I think that's the experiences I had. 

[00:29:43] That conversion rate optimization was more perceived as more relevant to paid. 

[00:29:47] It isn't the case anymore. 

[00:29:49] But in, in my experience as well, it is much underutilized by SEO teams as well. Or in SEO still. 

[00:29:57] So I would encourage people to think about that a bit more. 

[00:30:01] Crystal Waddell: That explains why it's not brought up more in SEO conversations. 

[00:30:06] Because if it's traditionally been more on this other side and people talk pretty much about the same thing all the time.

[00:30:12] It makes sense how they didn't quite converge, earlier.

[00:30:16] Erika Varangouli 2: It's a whole discipline. 

[00:30:18] If we're talking, let's say big brands and everything, or big companies. Yeah. You need experts for that. 

[00:30:22] But in the same way for me, you need experts for technical SEO, right? Not everyone is a technical SEO or content. 

[00:30:28] So that meeting point between the two for me is crucial.

[00:30:33] So yeah. 

[00:30:33] Crystal Waddell: Wow. So that is, oh man, that's going to be a thread that I'm going to have to go pull on now. 

[00:30:40] Erika Varangouli 2: Let me just say something. Okay. 

[00:30:41] Cause I'm thinking like, okay, your audience. 

[00:30:43] The people who are, one person show or very small teams or solopreneurs. 

[00:30:48] Most likely they cannot afford that, right?

[00:30:51] That's quite expensive. It requires a lot of testing. 

[00:30:53] But in practice and day to day. 

[00:30:56] Just look at your content, look at your pages. 

[00:30:58] And even things like you cannot test in a strict testing environment, I get it. 

[00:31:04] But tweak around some of your calls to action. Or add a few in your content. 

[00:31:09] Or, try to think like your audience. 

[00:31:12] And say, okay, from this page, I include a prominent button for people to convert.

[00:31:16] Or put it above that other call to action. Or just have one.

[00:31:20] What happens? You can not necessarily measure it appropriately.

[00:31:24] But still like it puts you in the process of thinking, okay, when I buy, look at the websites. or e commerce sites that you like. 

[00:31:32] That you find the experience smoothest. 

[00:31:34] And just try to think, would that resonate with my audience? And then just try it. 

[00:31:39] Just take some chances and see what happens.

[00:31:42] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. 

[00:31:42] When I started, going down this rabbit hole of user experience, I signed up for a user experience course on Coursera. 

[00:31:49] I think it was Google's course or whatever. And that's when I learned, you could have somebody go on your website. 

[00:31:54] And watch them click around. And see what happens, and then. 

[00:31:57] Someone just, I think it was Celeste, she's coming on the podcast soon, she talked about heat maps and like seeing where people are clicking or rage clicking or thinking that something should be clickable and it's not. 

[00:32:08] I love all of this optimization. 

[00:32:10] It's like a constantly unfolding puzzle. There's just always something new to solve.

[00:32:15] Erika Varangouli 2: Yeah. 

[00:32:16] Crystal Waddell: Okay. I think the last question that I wanted to ask you before our time ends today. 

[00:32:21] And once again, I just want to say thank you, Erika. 

[00:32:23] This has just been a treat. So fun. 

Evaluating and Adjusting Your Strategy

[00:32:25] Crystal Waddell: How often do you think that a small business or any business should evaluate their strategy? 

[00:32:31] They say, okay, I'm going to put these things into practice.

[00:32:35] What is the process or how long before you determine does it need to be tweaked changed? 

[00:32:41] Erika Varangouli 2: That is a very good question and a very practical question. 

[00:32:44] But let me think. 

[00:32:46] My experience with small businesses is that very often there is no strategy, right? 

[00:32:50] It's just we need the website, we need to have the content.

[00:32:54] And then we just, Pay a writer to write stuff based on whatever they search online. 

[00:33:00] Or we give them like a few keywords to write. Now I don't necessarily consider that a strategy, right? That's a start. Or it's something. 

[00:33:08] But for me, the strategy needs to be around what do I want to achieve?

[00:33:12] So there are two, three main elements of that. 

[00:33:14] What do I want to achieve? How will I achieve it? And then it's like, how much am I going to put in? 

[00:33:20] So if any of those three elements are missing or seriously underperforming, I would say we re evaluate. 

[00:33:27] But the question, if it's connected to SEO alone, right?

[00:33:32] You can read a lot online about how long does SEO take to work? 

[00:33:35] And then you'll see different answers, like not at all, or at least six months. And that also depends on how big your website is. Or how fresh you are, how much you have. 

[00:33:45] What I would say is that you would need to probably collect information for your industry, your competitors, see where you are against them. And then try to set a realistic expectation.

[00:33:57] Because you can easily panic. And say that I'm going to change what I do every month. And then just end up circling around. 

[00:34:04] You want to be consistent. You want to be persistent. 

[00:34:07] But then also if you're doing it for two years and you're not seeing much, it makes sense to really doubt. 

[00:34:13] So I'm not saying review every month. I'm not saying review after a year. 

[00:34:17] I'm saying set a realistic expectation from the start or as realistic as possible. And then review at that time. 

[00:34:24] Like if you're starting to see some movement, maybe you don't need to reshuffle everything. You just need to tweak or add more things to it.

[00:34:31] But if you're seeing nothing at all and it's been months and you're spending money on doing something or your energy. 

[00:34:37] Consider changing some part of it. Or adding elements to that equation. But I'm afraid I cannot answer it for everyone.

[00:34:44] Okay, I can answer it for like companies I've worked for or my experiences. But I know it's so different for everyone. 

[00:34:51] Crystal Waddell: Yeah. It's always great to get perspective from someone who's done it, before.

[00:34:56] Erika Varangouli 2: Definitely don't panic in the first month or two. 

[00:34:58] Like I've had clients who are like, We've been doing it for two months now, and we don't see much movement.

[00:35:02] It's like, you're only getting started. 

[00:35:04] So the smaller you are, the more logical it is to needing a bit more time for things to work. 

[00:35:10] But it also depends on how much you're doing. So there are a lot of elements there. 

[00:35:14] Crystal Waddell: Awesome. Okay. Erika, if someone wants to follow you or just, see what you're up to now. And what you're working on now.

[00:35:21] Where would be the best place for them to do that?

[00:35:24] Erika Varangouli 2: Probably LinkedIn where you found me, Crystal. Just LinkedIn with my name, Erika Varangouli. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to connect and speak with people there. 

[00:35:31] Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. 

[00:35:34] We are this close to 60, 000 downloads. So as a podcast, so hopefully when your episode airs, we will either be at that point or, just past it, but I hope that you're part of that, big milestone for us.

[00:35:48] Thank you. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. 

[00:35:51] All right, I will see you next time. Bye.