The Truth About SEO and Pinterest Search in 2024 w/Kate Ahl

Today I'm joined by Kate Ahl, the CEO of Simple Pin Media and KateAhl.com!

We talked about 

• leveraging Pinterest for business growth
• Pinterest's constant changes
•  Nuances of digital marketing and
• The Importance of sharing experience over advice.

 Navigating a business in the AI era?

• Kate shared that there are lots of uncertainty and challenges of running a digital business in the AI era
•  She stressed the need for honesty and vulnerability in sharing learning experiences.
• Shifts in the creator economy (TikTok, AI) make it challenging to keep up.

How should businesses use Pinterest?

• Kate encourages businesses to view social media platforms as levers -  pull everything to the central part of your business.
• Search intent on Pinterest is critical. 
• 97 percent of searches on the platform are unbranded. 
• Pinterest users are  more interested in products that serve them vs brands.
• Local businesses: optimize your profiles with location details.

Promoted Pins vs. Pinterest Ads

• Promoted pins are more about awareness. 
• Pinterest Ads are more about driving specific actions. Both
• A Pinterest ad lets you build an ad from scratch targeting a specific group of people and keywords.

Insights For Building a Woman-Owned Business

• Rely on data rather than just following what others say, especially in a rapidly evolving digital marketing landscape.
• Women business owners must juggle family and work differently from men.
• Share experience over advice 

Connect with Kate Ahl
Simple Pin Podcast
The Empowered Agency Podcast

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Chapters

• 0:00 The digital marketing world, every year that we go forward, you have to
• 0:04 realize nobody's ever done this before.
• 1:05 Welcome to the Simple and Smart SEO Show Podcast
• 1:11 Kate Ahl's Journey
• 2:00 The Evolution of Pinterest and Its Challenges
• 3:08 Crafting the Perfect Podcast Intro
• 5:24 Leveraging Pinterest for Business Growth
• 11:46 Understanding Search Intent on Pinterest
• 15:20 Ideating Pinterest Content for Local Businesses
• 19:42 Unlocking the Power of Feedback for Website Optimization
• 20:15 Demystifying Pinterest Ads and Promoted Pins
• 22:39 The Journey of Experimentation with Pinterest Ads
• 25:10 Navigating the Digital Marketing Landscape with Authenticity
• 27:58 Finding Your Voice in Business and Podcasting
• 29:13 Embracing the Challenges of Running a Business as a Woman
• 30:56 The Importance of Sharing Experiences Over Advice
• 36:19 Concluding Thoughts on Business, Learning, and Growth

Transcript

[00:00:00] The digital marketing world, every year that we go forward, you have to realize nobody's ever done this before. 

[00:00:07] No one's ever run a digital business in the midst of AI. 

[00:00:10] And I remember, post pandemic, beginning recession talk. 

[00:00:15] It's if I see one person talk about how to navigate a recession on the back of a pandemic, I'm going to snap something. 

[00:00:22] Because they don't know what they're doing.

[00:00:23] None of us know what we're doing. 

[00:00:25] And the biggest thing is that we all have to be honest about where we're at, what we're learning and how we're learning it.

[00:00:31] If we're vulnerable to talk about those learning lessons. We help somebody else who has an aha moment. 

[00:00:38] But I think it's so frustrating to hear the people who want to be experts in something that nobody can be an expert in yet. 

[00:00:46] Welcome to the third season of the Simple and Smart SEO Show, the podcast dedicated to empathy driven, brand building SEO. 

[00:00:53] I'm your host, Crystal Waddell. 

[00:00:55] I leverage my obsession with user experience to help business owners just like you optimize your website with confidence. 

[00:01:02] Thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:03] Let's jump into another great episode

Welcome to the Simple and Smart SEO Show Podcast

[00:01:05] All right, guys, welcome back to the Simple and Smart SEO Show Podcast. 

[00:01:10] Woo. I have to take a deep breath here. 

Kate Ahl's Journey

[00:01:11] Because I am with Kate all the founder and CEO of Simple Pin Media. And also she has started an agency and a whole different side of her business. I think it's KateAhl.com. 

[00:01:23] But Kate, welcome to the show.

[00:01:25] And maybe if I messed that up, could you tighten it up for me?

[00:01:28] No, that was right on. 

[00:01:30] Started Simple Pin Media and then launched into Kate Ahl.

[00:01:33] As just a way to share my story. Cause I knew other people were running their agencies and trying to bumble their way through. So I figured I've got 10 years of wisdom.

[00:01:43] Why not pass it on? 

[00:01:45] Yeah. 

[00:01:45] And I was telling you before we started recording that I was actually in one of your agency groups before you changed the name. 

[00:01:53] I'll definitely link to it in the show notes. 

[00:01:55] But I wanted to tell you, I, at that time, I don't know, was it 2020?

[00:01:59] I can't remember. 

The Evolution of Pinterest and Its Challenges

[00:02:00] But at that time I'd been spending a lot of time on clubhouse and I was talking about Pinterest and people were like. Oh, wow. 

[00:02:08] So it really flipped a switch in me. And I would present every Thursday in this little room.

[00:02:13] And then someone said, Hey, can you do my Pinterest for me? 

[00:02:16] And she's probably listening to this right now. 

[00:02:17] So I wanted to get into Pinterest management and your course came available right then. 

[00:02:23] And I implemented it from start to finish. Like I used a little bit different email service provider.

[00:02:29] I had my system set up and it was it was seamless and it was awesome.

[00:02:33] But unfortunately Pinterest kept changing so much. I was like, I can't do this.

[00:02:38] But I do want to say props to you because that was a great program. 

[00:02:41] Yeah. Thank you for that too. And I think what I've learned since then too, is just to take that framework and help apply it to anybody who's a service provider.

[00:02:50] But I agree. Pinterest changes every like 10 days. And it makes you want to pull your hair out. So I totally get it. 

[00:02:57] Yeah. This was a time when idea pins were first coming out and there's so many questions. 

[00:03:02] And I'm encouraging people to do things and all of a sudden it like disappear. I gotta stop.

[00:03:06] Yep. It was maddening. 

Crafting the Perfect Podcast Intro

[00:03:08] Okay, I've been listening to your Pinterest podcast for so long. And I wanted to know how you came up with that intro, the Pinterest advice that goes down smooth and easy, because it reminds me of something my dad used to play when I was a kid.

[00:03:22] Yeah, that is so funny because no one's asked me about it in a long time. So I love this. It was actually my husband because I had come out with- 

[00:03:31] I was working with a coach at the time and there was a previous Pinterest podcast that was just getting lift. 

[00:03:37] But that host was taking a break because she needed to step back for family reasons.

[00:03:42] And my coach knew this kind of insider information. And when it was going to stop. And he was like, you need a podcast. 

[00:03:48] And so he said, you're going to have to figure out the music, you're going to have to figure out the intro. 

[00:03:53] And at the time, I want to say it was 2016. And there were not a lot of podcasts out there.

[00:03:58] There was a lot of people who were doing voiceovers at the time. 

[00:04:01] Which right now you don't hear that as much anymore. 

[00:04:05] And so I came up with this one and I went out and I had my husband listen to it. 

[00:04:09] And he was like, no, that sounds like the indigo girls. 

[00:04:13] It sounds too girly, like no way. And so he's like, I'm going to do this.

[00:04:18] He ended up writing the Pinterest for business advice that comes down smooth and easy. 

[00:04:22] He's like, I want this voice. I want this sound. It'll be so good. 

[00:04:26] And so I found a guy on Fiverr. 

[00:04:29] And he ended up whipping it for me. 

[00:04:31] And my husband was like, yes, that is it. So that's really how it came about. 

[00:04:36] And then, there's been a few times over the years that I thought, maybe I should change it.

[00:04:39] Maybe it's just do away with it. And people were like, no, you've got to keep it. 

[00:04:43] Yeah. Cause that gets my attention. If I ever have a podcast queued up and then that music comes on, I'm like, Oh, yes. Okay.

[00:04:50] Here we go. 

[00:04:51] Oh my gosh. I love it. Thank you for that reminder that it's still there. Cause I just record like this and I rarely listened back to my podcast. 

[00:04:58] And a lot of that is just time, but also it's hard for me to listen to my voice sometimes.

[00:05:04] But no, I appreciate that you brought that up. 

[00:05:06] Yeah, and that was also really neat that your coach had the insider information. 

[00:05:10] Because it's just a reminder that sometimes we just have to make ourselves available. 

[00:05:15] And then the opportunities come. 

[00:05:17] And it's just a matter of timing and luck. 

[00:05:18] Just being in the position to be available.

[00:05:21] So that was cool. 

[00:05:22] Yeah, for sure. 

[00:05:22] Okay. 

Leveraging Pinterest for Business Growth

[00:05:24] So in previous discussions, you mentioned one of my favorite words, which is leverage. 

[00:05:29] Because I talk SEO. I have an SEO small group where we meet every Wednesday and we talk SEO concepts for just all websites. 

[00:05:38] And you are the first person that I've heard say you should leverage what you do on Pinterest for your business.

[00:05:46] And so I just wondered if you could expound on that. And share what you meant by that. 

[00:05:50] Yeah. A lot of people, I think we take this whole social media marketing or digital marketing in like pieces and parts. 

[00:05:57] Instead of really seeing it truly as a lever that you pull. 

[00:06:01] That your main site, your main business model is really this hub in the middle of spokes, right?

[00:06:07] And so when we choose to leverage a platform, we have to make that intentional decision.

[00:06:12] And that word just resonated with me. 

[00:06:15] Instead of, Oh, we're just going to use Instagram. 

[00:06:18] And we're going to see it as this standalone thing. 

[00:06:20] Or we're going to use Pinterest and it's a standalone thing.

[00:06:23] No, it's a lever that you pull that really brings everything to the central part of your business. 

[00:06:28] It's not like, somebody just puts up a billboard locally and it's Oh, I'm just going to put up a billboard and hope everybody sees me. 

[00:06:35] But it is a tool to get them back to the in person location. And so I just used it, I think, unintentionally. 

[00:06:43] Probably because that's the way that I saw it. And so I thought everybody else needs to recognize that it is this extension that brings people back in. 

[00:06:53] Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:06:54] I have this saying give every channel a job. Or everything that you do. 

[00:06:58] Whether it's a page on your website.

[00:06:59] Or, Instagram, social media, LinkedIn, whatever. 

[00:07:02] Give it a job, especially if you're a solopreneur and you can't do everything.

[00:07:07] Just give it a job. 

[00:07:08] And then, like you said, leverage that as you would a person in that position. 

[00:07:13] And another thing that sometimes people don't realize about Pinterest is that when you leverage Pinterest, you're also leveraging their domain authority. 

[00:07:22] And so a lot of smaller businesses, they don't have a very high domain authority.

[00:07:26] It goes, from zero to a hundred. 

[00:07:28] And so small businesses typically fall under 15. 

[00:07:31] Pinterest is up in the seventies or eighties. 

[00:07:34] So there's a lot of times we can become more competitive with a particular keyword if we use it on Pinterest versus on our site.

[00:07:41] And show up in the search results. So that was something I found. And I was like, Oh, this is amazing. 

[00:07:46] So different than the rest, which is refreshing. 

[00:07:50] It is, except for the pin that keeps coming back around. 

[00:07:54] Yes. The pin that never dies. 

[00:07:56] Yes. The one of one of my very first pieces of artwork. And I'm like, wow, I can't believe that thing is still alive.

[00:08:03] Okay. So another thing just along that line of leveraging Pinterest is the concept of unbranded search. 

[00:08:11] And I feel like this has been such a catalyst for my own business because I sell wooden letters and numbers. 

[00:08:18] And I ship them all over and we're working on marquee letters and stuff. 

[00:08:22] It's something I found in Google search console that I didn't even know people were looking for.

[00:08:26] And it's just crazy. So I'm like, what is an unbranded search and what makes it so powerful for small businesses who might be unknown or even a little bit known? 

[00:08:36] Yeah. I love that too. 

[00:08:37] And what Pinterest says is that 97 percent of searches are unbranded. So people are going with a keyword rather than going with a brand.

[00:08:45] So when I use the example that when we go onto Instagram, we're looking for this engagement piece. 

[00:08:51] Like a common phrase that I have is Pinterest is the library. And instagram is the bar. 

[00:08:56] And so people are looking for who they know. They're looking for connection. They're searching. I will search on Instagram for people all the time.

[00:09:04] But when I go to Pinterest, I'm very much interested in what is going to serve me. 

[00:09:09] So the pinner switches from searching for a brand to searching for a particular product like yours, wooden letters for a baby nursery or wooden letters for the house. 

[00:09:19] And it, they don't even care who the brand is. So what this does, and an example that we use is we have a custom tile maker.

[00:09:27] So they're making custom tile for people. They're making handmade tile. They're competing with Home Depot and Lowe's. 

[00:09:34] And these big box stores. 

[00:09:36] But people aren't necessarily going onto Pinterest to search Home Depot tile. They're going to Home Depot for that, but they're going for Pinterest for something unique and different.

[00:09:46] So it gives this handmade seller, an opportunity to compete on the level of a really big business. 

[00:09:53] And I think that's the advantage that small sellers who might be unknown, if they're really good at their keyword game. 

[00:10:00] They can get in front of those people in those searches. 

[00:10:03] And that's what I love is it levels the playing field.

[00:10:06] Yeah, I love that too. It really helped my business. 

[00:10:10] And making the switch to talk about SEO was so simple because it's very similar. It's almost the exact same thing. 

[00:10:17] When you're looking for keywords on Google, you would look first in the search bar. 

[00:10:21] You don't even need a special tool.

[00:10:22] You just need to look and see what keywords are related to what you're selling. 

[00:10:26] And you do the same on Pinterest. 

[00:10:28] So it was really natural for me to go from Pinterest to SEO. 

[00:10:32] But I have to ask you a question about Pinterest. 

[00:10:35] What happened to the shop tab? 

[00:10:37] Yeah. 

[00:10:37] So that went away. 

[00:10:38] And a lot of people were really worried about it. 

[00:10:40] But really it was just a profile feature. 

[00:10:43] That when you went onto your profile, you could find the shop tab and see all your products are saved.

[00:10:47] I think what they realized is that because of the unbranded search, not a lot of people come to profiles. 

[00:10:55] So they're not like seeking you out. 

[00:10:56] Instead of if they are on your website, they click on the Pinterest link, they come to your profile. 

[00:11:02] So they just found that it wasn't really an advantageous tab that was needed.

[00:11:06] So they just took it out. But all the features of the shop of the verified merchant program, they're all still there. 

[00:11:12] Okay, great. It does say you are a member of the Verified Merchant Program, but I'm like, the Shop tab's gone. What do I do? 

[00:11:18] I know, it's more annoying because we can't find our stuff easily, but it's still there.

Understanding Search Intent on Pinterest

[00:11:23] So you just alluded to it, but how would you describe search intent on Pinterest? 

[00:11:28] Because that's such an important concept.

[00:11:30] A lot of people, they think, Oh, I've got a lot of traffic to my website. Woo. 

[00:11:34] But if they're not looking for what you sell or it's not related, how valuable is it? 

[00:11:40] How would you describe search intent on Pinterest and what strategies can businesses use to leverage that? 

[00:11:47] So the search intent is all based on keywords.

[00:11:49] With SEO, there's so much like crossover between that and Pinterest. It's just, SEO and Google have way better tools than Pinterest does. 

[00:11:58] To really target in with that keyword. 

[00:12:00] And so what we tell people is that you want to look at what is already being searched on Pinterest. What the keywords are there.

[00:12:07] And then there's a trends tool that people can use to see like when the searches are at their highest. 

[00:12:13] And because Pinterest users are planners, the search intent happens so far before an event. Or when you're going to do something. 

[00:12:22] That it's really trying to get your content into the pipeline when they're searching. 

[00:12:27] Not when they're ready to buy.

[00:12:29] And so we want to leverage keywords in board names, board descriptions, pin titles, pin descriptions. 

[00:12:36] Anywhere you can fill out like a field, go for it. That is really for the search algorithm. It's not for the person. 

[00:12:44] The images are for the person on Pinterest. 

[00:12:46] Because they're not primed to read. They're primed to just look at the image, decide what it is, if they want to click or save. 

[00:12:53] And then move on.

[00:12:54] That process happens so quickly. So then if you're really intent about the keywords that you're targeting on Pinterest, it's going to be much easier for you to end up in either a search feed when somebody searched the particular term. 

[00:13:07] Or, end up in their interests. If Pinterest knows this particular user is interested in what they're looking Wooden letters for their nursery.

[00:13:15] It's going to look at your content. 

[00:13:17] Both products and content. 

[00:13:19] And say, Oh, this has wooden letters for a baby nursery. 

[00:13:23] We're going to start putting that into their home feed to see if they're interested. 

[00:13:27] Yeah, that is so awesome. And again, it's that parallel with SEO. 

[00:13:32] That you want to get that content out early. 

[00:13:34] Three months or whatever, let it get some momentum, before the heavy search time.

[00:13:40] And that was that lesson from you and, just, being on Pinterest for so long. 

[00:13:45] It was so helpful transitioning into SEO. 

[00:13:48] So I just think it's interesting how similar they are.

[00:13:51] And I'm just so grateful for that because it made SEO so seamless, I, I guess that's probably why it seems so easy to me and other people think it's hard. 

[00:13:59] But if you use Pinterest, you can really. Use what you've learned on Pinterest to navigate SEO.

[00:14:06] I have these Easter letters. They're giant and they go on a backdrop. And this year I had it on my calendar make sure. 

[00:14:12] That you start in, whatever month it was January, I think promoting, and I.

[00:14:18] Sometimes Shopify doesn't give direct attribution to Pinterest. 

[00:14:24] Because I know so many people come from Pinterest. And my business is very personal, so I can just ask people like, Hey, where'd you see me? And if they remember, they usually say Pinterest.

[00:14:34] And you said that the images are really important and that was another thing that I realized in e commerce, like people don't read. 

[00:14:41] Like the text is for the computers, to read, but a lot of times people will swipe, the images.

[00:14:47] And that's where you can put kind of your FAQs or important texts or whatever. And I didn't fully make that connection until you just said that. 

[00:14:55] So yeah. Okay. 

Ideating Pinterest Content for Local Businesses

[00:14:57] Can you share a process for ideating Pinterest content for local businesses? 

[00:15:04] And particularly, I'm thinking about like a senior photographer or like a dog trainer. 

[00:15:11] Can they be successful on Pinterest?

[00:15:13] Yeah, that's always our gray area. That's one of the things that if a client came to us, I would say you have to be able to work with people nationally. 

[00:15:23] I wouldn't say so much globally, but I would definitely say nationally. So if you're willing to travel as a photographer, which we see that a lot with weddings.

[00:15:31] Is that a lot of people will save a lot of their time and effort.

[00:15:34] Portraits or they'll save a lot of posing, all those kinds of things. I'll find that. 

[00:15:38] You want to really leverage the place that you're in by using, I'm in Portland. So I would use photographer in Portland, best places to take pictures, take senior pictures in Portland. 

[00:15:49] And I would showcase that. But it is going to be a little bit of a harder lift.

[00:15:53] We definitely see local businesses getting more play off of Instagram, Yelp, or even Facebook sometimes just because it really targets local, like you can follow local people. 

[00:16:04] And for some reason, a lot of that stuff shows up. 

[00:16:07] Like Instagram is good at knowing I'm in Portland. So I'll see things that are Portland creators.

[00:16:13] So with Pinterest, what I would tell people is that I would put probably three to six months of effort into it. 

[00:16:19] I would definitely have your profile optimized. I would make sure that you have location and everything. 

[00:16:25] And an easy way to connect with you and come to your website and book. 

[00:16:29] That is one of the biggest things that I see is that for some reason, a lot of local businesses don't optimize their site for user experience.

[00:16:38] Like it's really clunky to move through. 

[00:16:41] I was looking at one actually yesterday. I think it was It's actually a wedding site. 

[00:16:46] For some reason I had happened upon it. 

[00:16:48] And I thought, I don't know what I'm looking at and it's hard on your phone. 

[00:16:52] So if there's some way to really capture them quickly at the top so I don't have to scroll, I mean I had to scroll a long way down. 

[00:16:59] And so that's, I mean I think that's just good website 101 tips. 

[00:17:03] But I think local businesses have an extra layer that a content creator or a product seller doesn't have.

[00:17:11] So it is good. I would try it. I would invest in it.

[00:17:15] But I would definitely do it for six months. Evaluate how it's going and if it's getting the return that you want.

[00:17:21] If not, just leave your profile there. You have all, let's say your photographer, you have all your stuff up there. People can see it and find it.

[00:17:27] That's a win right there as opposed to not using it at all. 

[00:17:31] Yeah. Oh my gosh. I totally agree. And that tip about location... 

[00:17:35] I've never put Fayetteville, North Carolina, because I do ship globally, definitely nationally. 

[00:17:41] But rarely do I do business locally. Just now with the marquee letters.

[00:17:45] But so that location is so key and so smart. So I definitely will share it with the dog trainer and the photographer. 

[00:17:53] And then the comment about user experience.

[00:17:55] That has been one of the most difficult things to convey to people. 

[00:17:59] Because, SEO is really only the first step.

[00:18:03] Like you're telling people about you, but that's like the front side of the coin.

[00:18:07] And then the backside of the coin is, can they navigate to complete whatever it was that attracted them to you? 

[00:18:15] And one of the big mistakes that I think I was in the ad society for a little bit. 

[00:18:21] One thing that I found out was I was running an ad for photo props for like senior photo props.

[00:18:26] Oh, okay. 

[00:18:27] But it would go to my homepage.

[00:18:29] Which, I also sell senior night gifts, for different sports seasons. So it just didn't align. 

[00:18:35] And that was when. It seems like it should be so simple. 

[00:18:39] But that's when I learned, make sure the pin leads to the product that is in the pin. 

[00:18:44] Yes, a hundred percent in that the experience because somebody's only looking at the image and they're not reading. 

[00:18:51] They're essentially coming to your website for more context.

[00:18:54] It's Oh, they've, you've piqued my interest on Pinterest. 

[00:18:57] Now I'm ready to learn more. 

[00:18:59] So walking them through that whole journey to where then they do want to then do business with you.

[00:19:05] And I think having somebody else look at it or a colleague or whatever.

[00:19:10] Because we're so close to our product, it's really hard for us to see stuff.

[00:19:14] So asking for somebody else to give you their feedback or even people in your community.

Unlocking the Power of Feedback for Website Optimization

[00:19:19] Like giving them a 25 Amazon gift card that says, Hey, can you take 10 minutes to look at my site and just give me any feedback of what you would change. 

[00:19:27] Is so valuable. 

[00:19:28] Oh, 100%. 

[00:19:30] I did that with a photographer last year. 

[00:19:32] And in my small group, I've been encouraging them to do the same.

[00:19:36] And sometimes in a hot seat, I might do it for someone. 

[00:19:39] But yeah it's a shame to work that hard to get the traffic there. 

[00:19:44] And then not be able to convert it. Because you didn't do something that you could actually control. 

[00:19:49] Yep. 

[00:19:50] Yeah that really stood out to me. 

Demystifying Pinterest Ads and Promoted Pins

[00:19:52] Okay, so another thing I heard you talking about with someone else, I can't remember who it was, but it was the fact that Pinterest ads and promoted pins aren't the same thing?

[00:20:03] Yeah, I know. This is crazy. 

[00:20:05] So I have to admit, this was about, I don't know, six or seven months ago, Erin, who is my ads director. 

[00:20:11] We were talking and some question came through in our marketing meeting from somebody about promoted pins and Pinterest ads. 

[00:20:18] And our customer service rep was like, yeah, I just told him it was the same thing.

[00:20:22] And Erin's like, it's not the same thing. 

[00:20:23] And then we were like, what? 

[00:20:25] So somewhere along the way, Pinterest started to extract the terminology. 

[00:20:29] And a promoted pin would be when you hit promote on a pin. You'll see that button. It's a very quick and easy way. 

[00:20:37] In fact, I did it after that. I was like, okay, how easy is it?

[00:20:41] Let me try it. Let's see if it's effective. It's a very much a high level, get you over the fear of ads type of thing. 

[00:20:47] So I did it. I only ran it for a month. 

[00:20:50] I did a dollar a day just to see what it would do. And I got some interesting data back about like clicking. And who was clicking. 

[00:20:58] It was interesting.

[00:20:59] A Pinterest ad you can build from scratch. So you're not taking an existing pin. Which is a promoted pin. 

[00:21:05] You're building your ad. You're saying I'm going to specifically create a new image. I'm going to target this group of people. 

[00:21:13] I'm going to use these keywords in my description and then I will launch this particular ad. 

[00:21:19] And then go deeper and deeper into targeting and all those kinds of things.

[00:21:22] So if you're just super easy, Go with a promoted pin and just try it. But still that same thing we just talked about remains. 

[00:21:30] You want to make sure the connection from the ad to the page is a really seamless. 

[00:21:35] Yeah. Especially because you're spending money. 

[00:21:37] I have no idea how much money I spent sending an ad to the wrong product.

[00:21:43] It makes so much sense because I remember there's been times where I've clicked on like it must have been promote a pin and it was so easy. 

[00:21:50] And then when I was in ad society, you actually learned how to set up the backend. 

[00:21:54] And I never really thought about it, but now I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, that was the difference, so...

[00:22:01] yeah, 

[00:22:01] and promoting a pin sounds like boosting a post. 

[00:22:05] Yes. 

[00:22:06] Like on Facebook or Instagram. Okay. 

[00:22:09] So is it effective? Cause a lot of times people will say, do not boost a post. On Facebook or Instagram. 

[00:22:16] Yeah. 

The Journey of Experimentation with Pinterest Ads

[00:22:16] So one of the things I like to challenge myself with is that in the last 10, I've done Pinterest for 11 years now.

[00:22:22] So there's been a lot of, I've seen things come and go, I've seen fads come and go. 

[00:22:28] And I always want to be somebody who challenges my norms. Okay. 

[00:22:31] So one of the norm that the norms that I found I had was that it was like a boosted post. It didn't work. 

[00:22:37] Or you don't want to run a Pinterest ad or a promoted pin for traffic.

[00:22:41] So I thought I'll call myself on that and I'll try it. 

[00:22:44] So we did the promoted pin in the fall and it was specifically to see if we could get email signups, but I didn't set it up all that well. 

[00:22:52] So we took a pause and then I said, let's do a section of time where we do a promoted pin just for traffic.

[00:22:58] Does it really work? And does it really make an effective change in our business? So we're mid process in that right now. 

[00:23:04] I think we're like six to eight weeks and we've gotten a lot of clicks and we're spending right around 2 a day. 

[00:23:10] So really cheap. And so we, what we want to see from there is, we're not necessarily doing it convert to an email, but we definitely have tracking set up to where we can see it.

[00:23:20] But then we're a gauging, we'll turn it off and we'll see, okay, did it increase our traffic or did it not increase our traffic? 

[00:23:25] Right now, I want to be somebody who communicates to my audience if I'm wrong or if I'm right. 

[00:23:32] And there's a lot of hacks, especially when Google makes an update.

[00:23:36] People who have had Pinterest in the past will flock back to it. So it's very much this teeter totter effect. 

[00:23:43] Where the helpful content update comes out and people are like, Oh my gosh, I need to diversify or oh my word, I need to go back to Pinterest.

[00:23:51] Pinterest does idea pins and people feel super confused by it.

[00:23:54] And they go, Oh my gosh, I need to go back to SEO. 

[00:23:57] So with that being said, we're in a moment right now where people are coming back to Pinterest and they're trying to be oriented to it again. 

[00:24:05] And so in that orientation, I want to be like, try this or don't try this, or I've tried this.

[00:24:10] In fact, I was at a conference. 

[00:24:12] We sponsored a conference last weekend and I told somebody who had listened to my podcast for a while. 

[00:24:16] I said, I know I'm not always right. 

[00:24:19] But if you come to me and you say, here's what my data tells me and it's counter to what I say, trust the data. 

[00:24:27] Don't trust me. Because if you're doing your due diligence to look at your own data story, trust that hands down over what I say. 

[00:24:35] But don't trust the Facebook post of somebody else's data.

[00:24:40] That's what I want people to avoid. 

[00:24:42] Yeah. Have your own experience versus trying to replicate theirs or whatever. 

Navigating the Digital Marketing Landscape with Authenticity

[00:24:47] I'm realizing how much I have learned from you over the years. 

[00:24:51] Because the first time I heard the acronym UTM was from you. 

[00:24:56] Or someone on your team. And then I remember the podcast you did on it.

[00:25:00] I was laughing. Sometimes I just laugh when you're doing stuff because I'm like, that's so me too. I'm like, I don't even want to deal with that. 

[00:25:07] But I'll try, you know. 

[00:25:08] Yes. 

[00:25:08] So that's when I realized, Oh, you can track pins and you can track different things. And, because we don't, as entrepreneurs, we don't go to some sort of digital business school.

[00:25:17] It's you're just picking up the little pieces everywhere. And it's that's how people know, what's happening or whatever. 

[00:25:23] And then the other thing, which is probably one of the catalysts for me shifting into SEO. 

[00:25:29] Was, I remember you had a screenshot our search console. 

[00:25:33] And that was something I never really dove into.

[00:25:36] I don't want to say delve because that's such an AI word. I can't stand it anymore. 

[00:25:40] Yes, totally. 

[00:25:41] But it's something that I never explored until you presented it. And it was just like, huh. 

[00:25:48] And just the light bulb went off. 

[00:25:50] The data tells that story. And sometimes I think to your point, like you're right.

[00:25:54] The digital marketing world, every year that we go forward, you have to realize nobody's ever done this before. 

[00:26:01] No one's ever run a digital business in the midst of AI. 

[00:26:05] And I remember, post pandemic, beginning recession talk. 

[00:26:10] It's if I see one person talk about how to navigate a recession on the back of a pandemic, I'm going to snap something. 

[00:26:17] Because they don't know what they're doing.

[00:26:18] None of us know what we're doing. 

[00:26:20] And the biggest thing is that we all have to be honest about where we're at, what we're learning and how we're learning it.

[00:26:26] If we're vulnerable to talk about those learning lessons. We help somebody else who has an aha moment. 

[00:26:33] But I think it's so frustrating to hear the people who want to be experts in something that nobody can be an expert in yet.

[00:26:41] That is such critical thinking. And I hadn't even really thought about it because I just, I'm naive in that way. 

[00:26:46] I just assume people know what they're talking about or that they're telling me the truth. 

[00:26:51] Right? 

[00:26:51] It wasn't until this year that I've been talking to, different entrepreneurs where they're telling me these expose stories or whatever.

[00:26:59] It's those ads that you see on Instagram, they don't really, make seven figures. And I'm thinking, what? 

[00:27:04] I'm like you too. I have exactly that way. 

[00:27:07] But I will say I have loved following you because you are just so real.

[00:27:12] And it was in The Empowered Agency Owner Podcast.

[00:27:16] You said that it was a little bit harder to find your voice. 

[00:27:20] As a new business owner in your second business. 

[00:27:23] And I resonated with that so much.

[00:27:26] Because as you're learning and as you're finding out okay how do I want to do this? 

[00:27:30] That is so important.

[00:27:32] I was just wondering was there anything you did to pry that out of yourself?

Finding Your Voice in Business and Podcasting

[00:27:35] Yeah, I think one of the biggest things was just giving myself a wide pasture to roam in, if you will. 

[00:27:42] Of recording the podcast and knowing- 

[00:27:46] I think what I had learned from growing Simple Pin is that I watched other people's success too closely. 

[00:27:52] I interrogated it. I looked at it.

[00:27:55] I compared myself to it. 

[00:27:56] And I have a common phrase that I learned during that time that I say to myself is don't chase somebody else's success. 

[00:28:02] That's not my story. That's not my business model. And so I had to get out of my head a lot. 

[00:28:09] So then when I came over to the Empowered Agency Podcast and Kate Ahl, I said. 

[00:28:14] The thing that's most important to me right now is that women who are running an agency would be able to hear the stories. 

[00:28:23] To hear the lessons, to hear the wisdom so that they too could create an agency that works for them.

[00:28:29] Cause what I saw was there was a lot of men teaching in the agency industry.

[00:28:34] Which is totally fine. 

[00:28:36] But women run agencies different. And that's what I had learned with having, I have one male contractor on my team on Simple Pin. 

[00:28:44] But for the most part, it's women leadership. 

[00:28:46] We've been figuring out how to do this, but we're also navigating a family.

Embracing the Challenges of Running a Business as a Woman

[00:28:50] And my COO, Leslie said something interesting a couple of years ago as we were wrestling through all the Pinterest changes and all these things. 

[00:28:59] And we were listening to some agency leadership podcasts that were run by men. 

[00:29:03] And she said, what's so different is that our lives are constantly changing all the time.

[00:29:10] Like our kids lives are changing. We're being interrupted all the time. Most often, and I wouldn't say always. 

[00:29:17] A man has the ability to work a nine to five straight through. 

[00:29:21] I don't know the last time I've worked a nine to five straight through. 

[00:29:23] It's probably when I'm traveling and I'm not around anybody. 

[00:29:27] And I can get it done.

[00:29:28] But for the most part like, yesterday, like both of my daughters had doctor's appointments. 

[00:29:33] And I had all these other things. I'm working in my bed at 3pm. 

[00:29:37] And then I'm making dinner at five. 

[00:29:39] Like these things were just so variable to me and I didn't feel like they were speaking to what women were really struggling with and what they were balancing.

[00:29:49] And so going into that, it was like, how do I pass on, what's worked for me? 

[00:29:53] And I had a group that I was a part of, Entrepreneurs Organization. 

[00:29:57] And it completely transformed the way I share my story. 

[00:30:01] Because you can't in EO, you can't share advice. It's like you, that's absolutely off the table. 

[00:30:07] You can only share experiences.

[00:30:09] If you have an experience with something, you're allowed to share that experience. 

[00:30:13] Good or bad or whatever it is. 

[00:30:15] And that in somebody hearing your experience, they will take away a piece of wisdom. 

[00:30:21] And they will see it in their own story and they will either do it or not do it. 

[00:30:24] But when we come with ideas that have never been tested and tried, we lead people down a path that doesn't work for them.

[00:30:33] 

The Importance of Sharing Experiences Over Advice

[00:30:33] I don't know if you've ever been in a group with five or six women, like a mastermind.

[00:30:37] And everybody's saying, you should do this and you should do this. 

[00:30:39] I think of tons of great ideas for other people. 

[00:30:42] Would I want to do it myself? Probably not. 

[00:30:45] And so I think the gatekeeping, that's how I found my voice. 

[00:30:49] Was really to say, this is important to me to share my experience. 

[00:30:53] So that a woman listening on the other side can say, Oh yeah, that works for me.

[00:30:59] Or. Oh no, I wouldn't do that. 

[00:31:00] Or that's a good pitfall to avoid or something like that. 

[00:31:03] And so from there, I've given myself the freedom. 

[00:31:06] I don't do blog posts with my podcasts. But I absolutely know that I should, I don't optimize for SEO. 

[00:31:12] I know that I should. 

[00:31:13] I know all these things. 

[00:31:14] But I let go of all of that and just said, my voice is the most important thing to learn.

[00:31:20] And I can go back and I can do blog posts for all of those podcasts. 

[00:31:24] I can do all of that. 

[00:31:26] But I can't go back and relearn the voice that needs to be there. So it's super cathartic for me. 

[00:31:32] I'll say it's almost like business therapy, being able to record it each week. 

[00:31:36] Oh my gosh. It's like business therapy for all of us who listen!

[00:31:39] So thank you for that. Because I remember you were probably the one who gave me that permission. 

[00:31:45] You know how, when you're in business and you don't know what you're doing, especially online. 

[00:31:49] Although I never thought about it the way you said.

[00:31:52] Nobody's ever been here before. And that's so liberating. 

[00:31:55] But you gave the permission to say, Hey, your business doesn't have to look like someone else's business. 

[00:32:01] Because the ads that are feeding me are like you need a digital course. 

[00:32:05] Yes I do. Okay. So let me get a digital course.

[00:32:08] And. I will tell you the good thing about that experience is that I was able to take away a lot of technical knowledge. 

[00:32:15] That I didn't understand about how the internet worked, like landing pages, I had always dealt with product pages or, whatever, something like that, or a blog page.

[00:32:23] But I never heard it called a landing page. 

[00:32:25] And it took me a while to kind of see how those two things were related or whatever. So I, from that experience, I loved it. But then the next thing was like, you need a membership. 

[00:32:34] And I'm like, that's it, so then I do that. 

[00:32:36] And, again, I picked up some stuff, but you're exactly right. 

[00:32:40] It's we need to assimilate what makes sense for us in our lives and just discard the rest without feeling like we're doing something wrong. 

[00:32:50] So yeah, I just, I want to say thank you for that because you have just been a consistent source of that kind of comfort. 

[00:33:00] Thank you. That's good to hear. I actually just wrote myself a note. I was like, okay, I've got some ideas along those lines. So thank you for some ideas too.

[00:33:08] And happy to share my experience and just pass it on to you. 

[00:33:13] I know we're winding down here. I love that you love to share, because that's why I started this podcast. 

[00:33:19] Because it's so powerful to have these conversations, and I never thought that I would be talking to Kate Ahl, so I'm very grateful for that.

[00:33:27] But I'm also grateful for all of the listeners on the other side that are hearing this conversation.

[00:33:33] And they're able to take away something from it. 

[00:33:35] There was two things you said recently in your podcast that I really loved and.

[00:33:42] You were talking about just that discussion of having enough space.

[00:33:46] And I think you just really broke it down, as you were describing, a woman's life. 

[00:33:51] Really being able to be honest with yourself and say, it's not that I'm not superwoman.

[00:33:56] It's not that I'm not great at what I do. It's just, there's not enough space in my life to accomplish everything. 

[00:34:02] Which then frees us up to find the most important things. 

[00:34:06] Yeah, a hundred percent. And I actually have to chuckle because I wrote an email last Monday to my Simple Pin list and I was sitting there at the table.

[00:34:18] I was literally there for an hour. I'm like, why does this feel so hard? I love to write. 

[00:34:22] The written form of communication and podcasting is like my jam. 

[00:34:26] And so I wrote about that. 

[00:34:28] I said, I've been sitting here for an hour. 

[00:34:31] And the reason that there's a tension is that I know that when you listen to business advice or you read an email, like that time is precious.

[00:34:40] And so here's when I think I was on my second cold. I had COVID and then I had another cold. And my daughter's graduating. And then I'll have another daughter graduating next year. 

[00:34:50] And so all these things, I was like, here's the five things I do to try to just keep balance. Like it's not rocket science.

[00:34:57] It's just the things I've learned. And it was these five tips that I gave. 

[00:35:01] And what was interesting. is the response I got back. 

[00:35:05] Like I sent it out and our customer service person gets all the responses and she was like, Kate, there's a lot coming in. 

[00:35:11] Like people needed to hear this. 

[00:35:13] And it was really interesting because it was really nothing about Pinterest.

[00:35:16] It was not going to give them a tip for Pinterest marketing. It was just like, I'm in this with you. I get it. 

[00:35:22] Especially as we've seen the creator economy shift so much. 

[00:35:26] There's conversations about, and I would lump in creator with product seller too. 

[00:35:30] Because there's such a shift happening right now with the way that Google distributes our content. 

[00:35:36] With Tik Tok, disrupting search with AI.

[00:35:39] And it's exhausting. Like it's not easy to keep up with it. 

[00:35:44] So sometimes you just have to go back to the basics to say, here's what's going to get us through this week. 

[00:35:49] Cause sometimes you need advice like that. 

[00:35:51] I don't need to know a seven figure launch. 

[00:35:53] I just need to know how to get through today.

[00:35:55] Absolutely. 

Concluding Thoughts on Business, Learning, and Growth

[00:35:56] Okay, on that note, because trust me, I have a lot more that I could ask you about. 

[00:36:02] But could you tell people if they have resonated with what you've talked about today. 

[00:36:07] How they can get in contact with you or the best place to find more about you?

[00:36:13] Yeah, I would say right off the bat. I have the two podcasts. So the Simple Pin Podcast, you can listen to the great intro. 

[00:36:19] And then The Empowered Agency Podcast, which is more seasonal, it's more episodic. 

[00:36:24] So it's on season eight, there's 10 episodes per season. That's the empowered agency podcast. 

[00:36:30] Just go listen to those.

[00:36:32] And then there'll be call to actions in there to sign up for our email list or whatever it is. 

[00:36:37] But wherever you're at. If you want to go down the road of Pinterest, listen to the Simple Pin Podcast. 

[00:36:42] If you are an agency owner, service provider, or VA. 

[00:36:46] I just think being a service provider in a VA, we are in a whole different bucket than a course creator. 

[00:36:52] And it's really easy to take course creator, membership creator advice. 

[00:36:57] But that's not our business.

[00:36:59] We have a different business. So those are the two ways you can connect with me. 

[00:37:03] Man, I love that so much! 

[00:37:04] Just having the clarity to know, that's not my business. So it's okay. I don't have to implement that advice. 

[00:37:10] It has been such a pleasure. This time has flown, but thank you so much, Kate, for coming on today.

[00:37:17] I know people are going to love it. And I love it and I'm just so grateful for you. 

[00:37:21] Thank you so much for having me and I'm grateful that you stumbled upon simple pin pro and you've iterated on your business and here we are today. 

[00:37:29] So kudos to you as well. 

[00:37:31] Yeah. Thank you. All right, guys. See you next time.

[00:37:34] ​